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  • #16
    Re: Webb out

    Cyril, that was all intelligently said. My only slight disagreement would be with your implying that it was a mistake to go to Michigan in the first place.

    That was hardly a wild and crazy idea, plus the opportunity to GET AN EDUCATION, KEEP Running in a big-time environment, plus moving along with the normal maturation process of leaving home, etc., sure sounds like a good, non-crazy idea to me. Hindsight is always 20/20.

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    • #17
      Re: Webb out

      Apparently, according to Annoying, since "Nobody could of predicted that the 2003 season would be this bad for Webb" it must actually be pretty hard to make predictions. I disgaree (like you) any knowledgable track fan would have seen that there was something wrong with Webb from very early this season... it was not hard to predict at all... you are right.

      And el Supremo, how do you know I don't have any insider knowledge? I suppose that all the defenders of Webb (you know, those guys and gals who are NOT the armchair coaches) must have inside info, eh? That's why they are so knowledgable about what is wrong with him and can defend him so well.

      Listen, I have lots of friends in this sport and when they run well, I praise. When they run like shit, I help them try and identify what is wrong with their training, tactics, etc. There is nothing wrong with that and it does not take away from my support for them. Making excuses isn't going to help out Webb at all... in fact, it will stall any development.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Webb out

        >Cyril, that was all intelligently said. My only
        >slight disagreement would be with your implying
        >that it was a mistake to go to Michigan in the
        >first place.

        That was hardly a wild and crazy
        >idea, plus the opportunity to GET AN EDUCATION,
        >KEEP Running in a big-time environment, plus
        >moving along with the normal maturation process
        >of leaving home, etc., sure sounds like a good,
        >non-crazy idea to me. Hindsight is always 20/20.

        Did Nike make an offer to him earlier. I'm not sure. If they did it was a mistake not to take it then. If not, he did the practical thing-go to Michigan. It would, at that stage, been truely courageous for him to say "no" to Michigan and stay with Raczko. I thought at the time, and still think, that would have been the smart thing to do. Why fix what works?

        He now has the best of both worlds. He's getting an education, getting money and getting the coaching that earned him in H.S. national record.

        After being derailed last year he in now back on the right track. Patience is a virtue many on this site are apparently lacking.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Webb out

          >Apparently, according to Annoying, since "Nobody
          >could of predicted that the 2003 season would be
          >this bad for Webb" it must actually be pretty
          >hard to make predictions. I disgaree (like you)
          >any knowledgable track fan would have seen that
          >there was something wrong with Webb from very
          >early this season... it was not hard to predict
          >at all... you are right.

          And el Supremo, how
          >do you know I don't have any insider knowledge?
          >I suppose that all the defenders of Webb (you
          >know, those guys and gals who are NOT the
          >armchair coaches) must have inside info, eh?
          >That's why they are so knowledgable about what
          >t is wrong with him and can defend him so well.
          >

          Listen, I have lots of friends in this sport
          >and when they run well, I praise. When they run
          >like shit, I help them try and identify what is
          >wrong with their training, tactics, etc. There
          >is nothing wrong with that and it does not take
          >away from my support for them. Making excuses
          >isn't going to help out Webb at all... in fact,
          >it will stall any development.


          What wasn't hard to predict was what happened in '02. Switching coaches and dramtiacally increasing mileage going into the frosh cross season had disaster spelled all over it. He needed a strong hand to hold him back at that stage.

          You say you have friends that you support while trying to find out what is wrong with their program. Isn't that what we are doing with A.W.?

          Were you as analytical an critical last year?

          Why isn't Hall running well? What happened to Ritz? They are both in power programs and have problems.

          A.W. did the right thing in leaving Michigan. This is a no-brainer for anyone who needs money to survive in this world. He is not a sell-out but doing the best thing for A.W.'s life and the smartest thing for his running career.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Webb out

            Cyril,

            I disagree, from what I KNOW and KNEW about Webb and his training while at Michigan, he was by far in the best shape out of anyone in the 2002 NCAA final. I wasn't sure if he would win, but I also thought he would for sure be top 2.

            This year was very easy to predict in my opinion. Next year is going to be tough to predict, but I'll be able to tell you EXACTLY how he will perform in 2004 after his 2nd indoor race. You kind of know by then.

            Yes, you are supporting AW. No one said you were not. My beef is with this quote from el Supremo "Defenders of Webb are simply tired of seeing armchair coaches disect his training and mental/physical state without any insider knowledge." Isn't being an armchair coach in a way supporting Webb byu trying to help and figure out what is wrong with him? If he gave me the opportunity, I would be much more than an armchair coach... but I don't have that option, do I? The other thing I take exception to is the implication that those who support AW are not "armchair coaches" and are privy to insider knowledge. Give me a break! His supporters know no more than I do (most probably less) and are really just hurting AW by coddling him and making excuses for him.

            Yes, I was as analytical though not as critical last year. There was no reason for me to be as critical seeing as though he performed so well in cross and looked great during track (at least in practices).

            I was never a huge fan of Hall, I am not a fan of Lanana as a coach (brilliant recruiter though) and never felt like Ryan would be much more than a 3:58/9 miler at best and that the 5k will probably be his best event. I may be wrong... again I hope I am... but I felt that way since he was a senior in high school. Not that that is bad... I don't feel like I am being hard towards RH... that would still be a great accomplishment.

            Ritz I am a huge fan of and think he has performed excpeionally well. How can you compare Webb and Ritz? Ritz had an amazing freshman year and ran 13:3? after a serious injury (much more serious than Webb's). Everyone experiences injuries and setbacks. Ritz is juman just like Webb. However, the 2 cannot be compared because Ritz, right now, is on a different level than Webb.

            In my opinion Webb should have taken the loot from Nike but stayed in Ann Arbor to train with Broe, Sully, Brannan, Willis and now Berryhill. That way he could have benefitted from a proven coach, gotten the same education at one of the best Universities in the world, and had people to train with. He may have been overtrained last year, Cyril, but he would have caught up with it and I bet this year he would have been running 3:34/5 had he stayed AND BELIEVED IN RONNY.

            M

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Webb out

              One last thing... Cyril, I will venture to say that AW will never get any better from his hs days under Razcko. Again, I wish I could say otherwise... but training by himself in Reston Va under a young inexperience hs coach is not going to be good for his long term development. Remember that I called. I think AW can be awesome... but not within his current environment.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Webb out

                >One last thing... Cyril, I will venture to say
                >that AW will never get any better from his hs
                >days under Razcko. Again, I wish I could say
                >otherwise... but training by himself in Reston Va
                >under a young inexperience hs coach is not going
                >to be good for his long term development.
                >Remember that I called. I think AW can be
                >awesome... but not within his current
                >environment.


                Well, we disagree. I think the environment that made him the best ever US prep miler can continue to nurture his development. Razcko has been proven with more than just Webb. He has produced a very stong high school squad. He is obviously doing something very right.

                I also think the comparison between Ritz and A.W. are strong. They both had phenomenal H.S. seasons. Webb's mile was a bit better than Ritz's 5k but both were superb. Last year, both ran well in CC - but that's Ritz's bread and butter. He should do very well in cross - Webb should be more concerned with keeping his speed than developing cross country stength. Obviously, Ritz ran great in track last year. Webb ran a mediocre (for him) track season - stalled by injury.

                This year Ritz again ran good cross (as he should) - Webb decided to focus on the track (imo -smart). In track - Ritz got hurt, Webb had troubles - we aren't quite sure what they were.

                So, they are very equal now. Both will be coming back next year. I think they both have great potential. Ritz is obviously very bright and thinking about an outside opportunity at making the olympic team. Webb also has an outside shot. I wish them both well.

                We are all armchair coaching. That's what makes this fun and interesting - different opinions (of course my opinion is the correct one - just kidin'). We don't know what Webb was doing and what his actual troubles were this year. He may not even know. We can only conjecture and post our opinions of what we think he should do coming from our varied backgrounds in the sport.

                What would you have done in Webb's shoes? Would you have taken the Nike money?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Webb out

                  All very true Cyril. I wish AW well... I really do. But like you said, we just disagree on Razcko I guess.

                  Anyway, if I were Webb I would have headed to Michigan to train with Ronnie and the crew but ALSO would have taken the money from Nike. I would have done exactly what he is doing now only at Michigan vs Mason and with Warhurst rather than Razcko.

                  Do you think that Ritz should have stayed with his hs coach or was it wise to go to Colorado?

                  What about Sage (or Bakken) to leave Joe Newton (arguably the best hs coach in the world)?

                  You see... even Joe will tell you that he is not meant to coach his kids past their 4 years. At some point you have to move on and learn new things from new people and there are some people out there that know how to deal with 14-18 year old athletes and others that are better with 18-23 year old ones. Razcko may be good developing talent quickly, but past that, I have yet to be impressed. Of course... I put much the "blame" on Webb himself... though it is the coach's job to train the mind as well as the body... so maybe it is al Razcko's fault!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Webb out

                    >All very true Cyril. I wish AW well... I really
                    >do. But like you said, we just disagree on
                    >Razcko I guess.

                    Anyway, if I were Webb I
                    >would have headed to Michigan to train with
                    >Ronnie and the crew but ALSO would have taken the
                    >money from Nike. I would have done exactly what
                    >he is doing now only at Michigan vs Mason and
                    >with Warhurst rather than Razcko.

                    Do you
                    >think that Ritz should have stayed with his hs
                    >coach or was it wise to go to Colorado?

                    What
                    >about Sage (or Bakken) to leave Joe Newton
                    >(arguably the best hs coach in the world)?

                    You
                    >see... even Joe will tell you that he is not
                    >meant to coach his kids past their 4 years. At
                    >some point you have to move on and learn new
                    >things from new people and there are some people
                    >out there that know how to deal with 14-18 year
                    >old athletes and others that are better with
                    >18-23 year old ones. Razcko may be good
                    >developing talent quickly, but past that, I have
                    >yet to be impressed. Of course... I put much the
                    >"blame" on Webb himself... though it is the
                    >coach's job to train the mind as well as the
                    >body... so maybe it is al Razcko's fault!

                    Should Ritz have gone to Colorado? We will see how he ends up doing. Should Seb have stayed with Peter? I would say yes. Some others might think he would have done better in a team environment. For some reason the US talent hasn't developed very well beyond the collegiate ranks.

                    I think college coaches are knowledgeable. I also think college coaches salaries are very dependant on the points earned by the performances of their athletes. So, a coach concerned with his job will try to get an athlete to perform as well as possible during the four years he is at a University. The coach will try to squeeze as many points out of an athlete as possible in as many seasons as possible as that is best for their program. But, is in the best long-term interest of the athlete?

                    A.W. is in an interesting situation. Unfortunately he is only one athlete. To prove or disprove my cynical view of the collegiate athletic system we would need a larger case study. But, I still think Nike put their money on a guy who has all the components (speed, strength and focus) of a champion - we will see over then next couple of years how it plays out.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Webb out

                      <This year Ritz again ran good cross (as he should) - >

                      Ritz did not run XC this past fall.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Webb out

                        ><This year Ritz again ran good cross (as he
                        >should) - >

                        Ritz did not run XC this past
                        >fall.

                        Thanks, my mistake, its even worse than I thought...already amost an entire year lost by a true US talent. Too much too soon? The other Colorado guys didn't fair too well at the end of the season either. I'm sure they all raced some good workouts, like Webb at Michigan. A little patience would be nice.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Webb out

                          This year has been one big nightmare for US distance running.
                          These so-called great high school runners have bombed in the college and pro-circuit.

                          Has there been a worst year for US distance running than 2003 so far.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Webb out

                            >This year has been one big nightmare for US
                            >distance running.
                            These so-called great high
                            >school runners have bombed in the college and
                            >pro-circuit.

                            Has there been a worst year for
                            >US distance running than 2003 so far.

                            AB -

                            There haven't been too many worse. Are we learning anything through the years?

                            Great H.S. talent in = mediocre college talent out

                            What's going on in the middle?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Webb out

                              I hope Bob Kennedy can come back.
                              His 12:58 5000meters is probably the biggest accomplishment of any US distance runner in the last 30 years. In fact I believe at the time it was set it was the only non-African sub 13 minute run for 5000 meters.
                              Today's US 5000 meters are reverting back to 13:35 mediocrity.

                              Right at the time of Steve Holman retirement US distance running went into a tail spin.

                              This lack of urgency among US distance runners is very strange. They seem to think that the track-world revolves around winning either the NCAAs or Nationals. They rarely talk about their running goals beyond US borders.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Webb out

                                Well, we had the Kennedy era...Bob, Todd Williams (one super tough talent) and Croghan. All should have been showing the way for younger guys.

                                Kennedy was, and is, a class act. I also hope he can make it back but have serious doubts. Goucher has a lot of ability and may be able to light things up a little bit. I also like Lincoln. Now that he survived the collegiate point grind, earning points for his education, we'll see if he can continue to develope into a competitive international runner.

                                On the shorter side, you have to be impressed by Steele. I like the fact that an 800 guy dropped to the 400 and ran so fast. If handled correctly - not overraced or overtrained, he may be able to run a damn good 8 in a couple of years.

                                At least he won't be burdened by a cc season...I hope.

                                Comment

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