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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: USA Names 100k WC Team

    I accept the challenge. Please contact KK's agent and see if you can set-up and appropriate time and location. I will assume he would prefer to wait until after the 2004 Olympics so may I propose late 2004 or early 2005 to allow him proper time to train.

    Please invite your doctor friend to come watch. Let me know and I'll pay his travel expenses if needed.

    While I'm at it I might as well challenge Krum to a marthon race. He can beat me at the mile but has no chance at a marathon. By your good doctors limitations theory, I can't beat him either. How sad the doctors world must be placing artifical limitiations on others.

    Wasn't it other doctors who told Dr. Bannister he couldn't break 4 minutes. Or proved a bubble bee can't fly. Or that a human being can't jump 29 feet. Science is great but it can't take into account all the variables involved because we don't all of them yet and some are intangible and can't be quantified. So fitting everyone into a model and telling them they can't do things based on that model is a mistake. I urge you not subscribe to that type of thinking or limit yourself like that. I know I don't.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: USA Names 100k WC Team

    >"Dr. Tim Noakes, probably the world's foremost
    >authority on the physiology of ultramarathoning,
    >says that the best predictor of ability at long
    >distances is ability at shorter distances."
    >

    Maybe its a good predictor of one's ability
    >but its not absolute. It's more of a general
    >rule of thumb. Common sense if you will. In
    >general a 2:20 marathoner will be able to run a
    >50 mile race faster than a 3:00 marathoner but I
    >say it is not absolute. There are many other
    >factors tpo be considered. If I'm a 2:15 -2:20
    >marathoner and KK is a 2:05 marthoner I still say
    >I have a shot at beating him over 100k, because
    >my body and psychy may be better suited than his
    >for the ultra endurance events.

    This is a fallacy, according to Dr. Noakes. You have almost no chance of beating him -- any 2:05 marathoner did not get that way by accident, rather they trained extrememly hard. And any 2:20 marathoner will absolutely crush a 3:00 marathoner over 50 miles; it's like comparing runners who have run 14:00 and 16:00 over 5k and asking which one will win at 10k. There's a world of difference between 2:05 and 2:20, just as there's a world of difference between 2:20 and 3:00. The major issues in any distance running event are talent and conditioning, and mental issues make a difference only when two athletes are somewhat similar in their physical abilities.

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  • Powell
    replied
    Re: USA Names 100k WC Team

    Check
    >out a history book, my friend, like the IAAF
    >worldrecord progression book. Here's the
    >nationalities of the recordsetters in the women's
    >hammer before the first Soviet ever came
    >along:
    Spain, Spain, Spain, Great Britain,
    >Denmark, US, Denmark, US, US, US, US, US, US,
    >then finally a Soviet (in 1988) before a couple
    >more US.

    The book's introduction to the vault
    >section even says, "The roots of Pole Vault as
    >an event for womena re centered in the USA."
    >(This written by a Brit, I might add.)

    4 US
    >recordsetters before the first German comes
    >along, 15 US recordsetters before the first
    >Chinese. Maybe you never heard of it until the
    >Chinese got into it in a big way, but that
    >doesn't mean that's when it started.

    I didn't say no woman ever did the PV before the Chinese started setting records. But if you look at the world BEST progression (NOT world record - there were no recognized records in this event until the second half of 1990s), the general pattern was this: one or two women would come along and break the previous record, then there would be 10 years of no action. It wasn't until late 1980s in China that this event was contested on a regular basis and at a respectable level (the 'world record' before that was 3.59). The catalyst for PV becoming a championship event were the development in these countries, not the 1.23 that two Americans vaulted in 1897. Ditto the Russians in HT.

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  • Powell
    replied
    Re: USA Names 100k WC Team

    >Using the same argument,
    >one could say that the mens 10k record of Barrios
    >was soft, since Geb has since destroyed it by
    >approx. 45 seconds. Radcliffe has taken the WR
    >down to 2:15 from the 2:20's. MJ ran 19.32 - was
    >19.72 soft? I think taking one stellar athletic
    >performance resulting in a major rewriting of the
    >record books and saying the record was soft is a
    >bit of a stretch.

    Geb never broke the 10000 WR by more than 6.76 seconds - there was a general raising of the standard in the first half of the 1990s, with Geb being just a part of the trend. Radcliffe and MJ are perhaps better examples, but: a) neither of them broke the WR in their first ever attempt at the distance, b) neither of their records is anywhere nearly as superior to second best ever as Abe's - MJ is 1.9% faster than Fredericks, Radcliffe 2.5% faster than Ndereba, while Abe is some 7% faster than the all-time second best !!!
    To give you an idea, here's what some other world record holders would have to achieve to match that: Tim Montgomery 9.15, MJ 18.39, Wilson Kipketer 1:35.07, Flo-Jo 9.95/20.21, Radcliffe 2:09:42. Moreover, none of the female specialist ultramarathoners is even approaching the previous world best of Ann Trason. Abe just made all these recreational runners look silly.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: USA Names 100k WC Team

    "Well, I did say why I believe the standards are low - if a world-class marathoner (and not a superstar, either - perhaps no. 10 in the world at best) can smash the world best in 100k by HALF AN HOUR in her first attempt, that means ultramarathoning does have much lower standards than the marathon. What's your counterargument?"

    Using the same argument, one could say that the mens 10k record of Barrios was soft, since Geb has since destroyed it by approx. 45 seconds. Radcliffe has taken the WR down to 2:15 from the 2:20's. MJ ran 19.32 - was 19.72 soft? I think taking one stellar athletic performance resulting in a major rewriting of the record books and saying the record was soft is a bit of a stretch.

    As Ultrarunner has pointed out, marathon performances do not translate linearly to ultra distances. Thus, a number 10 ranked marathoners in the world may easily be able to destroy the 9 ahead of her when the distance becomes 62 miles.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: USA Names 100k WC Team

    >How about the
    >spirit of ascribing to yourself the achievements
    >of others? Women's HT was first championed by the
    >Russians, who were setting all the records
    >starting from the early 1990s - the Americans
    >didn't play any part until some 5 years later
    >(more or less the same is true of women's
    >steeplechase). In the women PV, it was first
    >China and then Germany that pioneered the event
    >and gave it respectability. Again, the Americans
    >only started playing a significant part a few
    >years later.>>

    Check out a history book, my friend, like the IAAF worldrecord progression book. Here's the nationalities of the recordsetters in the women's hammer before the first Soviet ever came along:
    Spain, Spain, Spain, Great Britain, Denmark, US, Denmark, US, US, US, US, US, US, then finally a Soviet (in 1988) before a couple more US.

    The book's introduction to the vault section even says, "The roots of Pole Vault as an event for womena re centered in the USA." (This written by a Brit, I might add.)

    4 US recordsetters before the first German comes along, 15 US recordsetters before the first Chinese. Maybe you never heard of it until the Chinese got into it in a big way, but that doesn't mean that's when it started.

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  • Powell
    replied
    Re: USA Names 100k WC Team

    I
    >disagree that the "standards" are low in the
    >ultramarathon - but even if they are calling it
    >a "made up" sport (no more so than the mile)
    >is pointless.

    Well, I did say why I believe the standards are low - if a world-class marathoner (and not a superstar, either - perhaps no. 10 in the world at best) can smash the world best in 100k by HALF AN HOUR in her first attempt, that means ultramarathoning does have much lower standards than the marathon. What's your counterargument?

    I understand that ultramarathoning is an amateur sport, so one should not expect the level to be the same as regular T&F events, but still, half an hour is a pretty extreme difference. I believe Abe's time would have given her a place in the season top 10 in MEN'S 100k. What's that saying about the event as a whole?

    Leave a comment:


  • Powell
    replied
    Re: USA Names 100k WC Team

    >I credit the NCAA and USATF
    >largely for making it possible for women to do
    >things like the steeplechase, 5K, 10K,
    >marathoning, 400H, PV, TJ and HT, which the rest
    >of the world ignored. It's interesting to note
    >that in almost all these disciplines, in the
    >early years the World Rankings (and even WRs)
    >are dominated by Americans, then the rest of the
    >world catches up.

    >It's also this spirit of
    >invention and moving ahead, in all fields, that
    >has made the U.S. the world leader in so many
    >things. It's something to be very proud
    >of.

    How about the spirit of ascribing to yourself the achievements of others? Women's HT was first championed by the Russians, who were setting all the records starting from the early 1990s - the Americans didn't play any part until some 5 years later (more or less the same is true of women's steeplechase). In the women PV, it was first China and then Germany that pioneered the event and gave it respectability. Again, the Americans only started playing a significant part a few years later.
    You may be right about TJ - that event was introduced by the NCAA long before the rest of the world embraced it. I'm not old enough to remember the times when the other events were first introduced... but in any case, the US spirit of invention has no longer been there in the last few years (at least not where women's T&F is concerned)

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: USA Names 100k WC Team

    >Dr. Tim Noakes,
    >probably the world's foremost authority on the
    >physiology of ultramarathoning, says that the
    >best predictor of ability at long distances is
    >ability at shorter distances.>>

    That's probably true in a physiological sense, but as we all know, what's between the ears plays a huge part, and I would posit that the long the distance, the more what's between the ears comes into play. I could be cynical and say you have to be absolutely-friggin'-nuts to run 100K, and therefore the prime requisite is NOTHING between the ears, but what I'm seriously getting at is the mental toughness to overcome not only the pain of running that far that hard, but also the sheer boredom.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: USA Names 100k WC Team

    "Dr. Tim Noakes, probably the world's foremost authority on the physiology of ultramarathoning, says that the best predictor of ability at long distances is ability at shorter distances."

    Maybe its a good predictor of one's ability but its not absolute. It's more of a general rule of thumb. Common sense if you will. In general a 2:20 marathoner will be able to run a 50 mile race faster than a 3:00 marathoner but I say it is not absolute. There are many other factors tpo be considered. If I'm a 2:15 -2:20 marathoner and KK is a 2:05 marthoner I still say I have a shot at beating him over 100k, because my body and psychy may be better suited than his for the ultra endurance events. He undoubtly has better 10k speed but I may have better natural endurance. So as a general rule I agree but its not an absolute.
    An example may be that Pre could beat Shorter at the mile and 5k but could not beat him at or above the 10k. Shorter was better suited physically and mentally for the marathon distance than Pre.

    In college, George Kersh could whip me all day long at distances up to and including the mile but from 5k on up I spanked him every time.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: USA Names 100k WC Team

    >I agree that KK would be good Ultrarunner at the
    >shorter Ultras (50k to 50 mile) but be careful.
    >Not all world class marathoners make good
    >d ultra-runners. Just like all 5k guys don't
    >make good marathoners. Or all milers make good
    >5k or 10k guys.

    Dr. Tim Noakes, probably the world's foremost authority on the physiology of ultramarathoning, says that the best predictor of ability at long distances is ability at shorter distances. He says that "if you can't beat someone at 1500 meters, you have little or no chance of beating them at 100 km", unless your opponent is not trained properly. The greatest ultramarathoner of our generation, Yiannis Kouros, has a standard marathon PR of 2:24 (which would almost certainly be faster if he had ever concentrated on the event), which is unusually fast for an ultramarathoner.

    Oh, and even within the USA, race is not an absolute. Ted Corbitt is the USA's greatest ultramarathoner ever. He also was not allowed to compete in some races due to his skin color.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: USA Names 100k WC Team

    I agree that KK would be good Ultrarunner at the shorter Ultras (50k to 50 mile) but be careful. Not all world class marathoners make good ultra-runners. Just like all 5k guys don't make good marathoners. Or all milers make good 5k or 10k guys.

    Once you get to the mod range Ultras at 100k to 100 miles it takes a different type of runner. You are out there 6 to 24 hours and that is a different type of endurance and a different mentality.

    Kargdon ran a 50 miler once and said it was the hardest thing he ever did and you could not pay him enough to do it again.

    Just like Lance Armstrong doesn't win all one day time trials or "dome" races, KK and other top distance guys would not necessarily do that well over 100k or 100 miles.

    50k. Absolutely, its just 5 miles over the marathon. But somewhere between there and 50 miles you get into territory thats very foriegn.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: USA Names 100k WC Team

    Americans do not dominate Ultarunning !!!!!

    Of the top ten ranked male Ultrarunners in the world last year. None were Americans. No American men holds Ultramarthon world records (at commonly run distances).

    On the womens side, we are very competitive but do not dominate.

    To throw a stone on Mr. Vol's statement about racial types (how this even came up is beyond me). But in South Africa there are many Ultras (some with serious prize money) and they are dominated by African runners, many of whom are world class marathoners as well. They specialize in the shorter ultras (50k to 50 mile) and generally have a good deal of the best times in the world each year at these distances. The mid ultras (100k to 100 mile) are not really dominated by any one country or continent, which why the 100k World Championships are so interesting each year. The longer Ultras which include the 100+ milers or 24, 48 hours and multiple day runs are dominated by one man and he is from Greece although the second tier behind him have many country's represented (including the US).

    If you want to say we invented the Ultra then fine, its not true but fine go ahead and say it.

    I believe it started long long before the ole USA was even around. An for what its worth good old Elijah probably still holds the 100k world record (although verification is still pending - LOL) when he out ran the Kings chariots all those years ago.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: USA Names 100k WC Team

    >BillVol may have a point... The standards in the
    >100k are nowhere near those in normal Olympic
    >events.

    Well, duh. Any athlete with professional aspirations does not do ultramarathoning. Doubtlessly, KK could be a champion ultra runner. But he'd have to get a day job, and he doesn't want one. Ultra-runners are true amateurs, and remaining amateur requires fanancial stability; it's not surprising, then, that Americans dominate ultra running.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: USA Names 100k WC Team

    Trail running has a world wide appeal and following, and is quite big in Europe in many different forms- such as the Fell Running that takes place in the British Isles.

    >My dad and I have a theory. When black guys take
    >over white sports, white guys invent other
    >sports, rather than try to work and compete with
    >the black guys. Such is the case with
    >ultra-running.

    I'm not surprised at all that
    >Americans are kings of ultramarathoning. In
    >fact, I'd be shocked if we weren't. I mean, who
    >else is going to run a hundred damn miles but
    >Americans? I'm sure we also dominate
    >trail-running, skate and snow boarding,
    >triathlon, and of course all the X-Game events.
    >

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