Rupp vs Lindgren

[26mi235]

Re: Rupp vs Lindgren .. vs Withrow??

Just a note, Matt Withrow, who is a few months older than Rupp (misses being a junior by six days) had an arguably superior mark last weekend. IIRC, he had a 13:35.32. 5000m. Using the standard of "double the time and add one minute", this comes out to 28:10; coincidentily this is almost exactly the converted 6-mile time cited above.[corrected as per next poster in the list]

[BYU grad]

Re: Rupp vs Lindgren .. vs Withrow??

Withrow's time in the 5000m at Stanford was actually 13:35.32.

[DrJay]

Re: Rupp vs Lindgren

>You would not believe the number of high schools and unversities who when
>meters came in in the '70s where handing out 400 and 800 records that were
>slower than the existing school records at the longer distances of 440 and
>880y. (Some probably still do)

Do many college or high school teams/coaches recognize a school record with a certificate or medal or plaque? Or at least a pint for those of age?

[Cyril]

Re: Rupp vs Lindgren .. vs Withrow??

>Just a note, Matt Withrow, who is a few months older than Rupp (misses being a
>junior by six days) had an arguably superior mark last weekend. IIRC, he had a
>13:35.32. 5000m. Using the standard of "double the time and add one minute",
>this comes out to 28:10; coincidentily this is almost exactly the converted
>6-mile time cited above.[corrected as per next poster in the list]

I don't think we have to concern ourselves with which mark is "superior". They are both excellent. This current wave of young US runners is very exciting. Even the relative "veterans" are still quite young and should have many years of solid running ahead.

[Highland]

Re: Rupp vs Lindgren .. vs Withrow??

Even with the allowance for questionable birth certificates in Kenya, the Africans have shown that a distance runner doesn't have to wait until he's 24 or 25 to reach world class. I hope Rupp and Ritz reach that level. But they've got a long ways to go, and U.S. standards in the distances are pathetic. Pre still holds the U.S. Trials mark in the 5,000, for crying out loud.

[Cyril]

Re: Rupp vs Lindgren .. vs Withrow??

>Even with the allowance for questionable birth certificates in Kenya, the
>Africans have shown that a distance runner doesn't have to wait until he's 24
>or 25 to reach world class. I hope Rupp and Ritz reach that level. But they've
>got a long ways to go, and U.S. standards in the distances are pathetic. Pre
>still holds the U.S. Trials mark in the 5,000, for crying out loud.

They aren't going to jump from a solid American to a world-class competitor overnight! They have shown very nice progress over a short amount of time. The season is just starting for both of them. I would think Ritz will see 13:10/low 27 or so this year. I wouldn't be surprised to see Galen around 13:28 sub 28 and Withrow will likely be in the low 13:20s. With Ritz leading the way these are all young guys pushing the US into the ranks with solid Africans. Not quite world class, though Ritz might get very close, but very, very competitive.That is not bad for now.

[psaltejohn]

Re: Rupp vs Lindgren

Galen Rupp's triumphant debut at the Twilight Meet in Eugene last week has the running world excited - and why not? The 19 year old neo-Duck knocked 15 seconds off Rudy Chapa's 10k AJR set in 1976, ran an incredible negative split, and threw off a sub 14:00 final 5k in a phenomenal solo flight finish.

But... as promising as this run was and as magnificent an accomplishment as it is, Rupp will have to run even faster before he turns 20 to be the greatest American Junior runner at this distance. Gerry Lindgren's 27:11.6 6 mile AJR set at the AAU Nationals in 1965 in San Diego is still the high bar standard for 10k and 6 miles both in terms of raw times and in terms of comparative accomplishment.

Raw times? Rupp's 28:15 translates to a 27:28 6 mile on conversion. Forgive me for thinking that they probably clocked this at Hayward Field and neglected it in the press release because it was not a better mark than Lindgren's run 40 years ago.

Comparative accomplishment? Rupp ran at twilight. Lindgren ran in the heat of the day (the Snell-Ryun match race was the feature in San Diego and run in the cool of evening). Rupp ran at Hayward Field in front of an adoring audience. Lindgren was running despite an NCAA ban on AAU competition and thought that a car back firing during the race was someone shooting at him (if you think this is indicative of Lindgren's fragile mental condition, read reports of the times...). Rupp's race was rabbitted. Lindgren was in a take-no-prisoners war with Billy Mills. Rupp enjoys the finest coaching, facilities, and support of any runner his age in history. Lindgren because of NCAA rules of the time had effectively "taken the year off" from competition because he was ineligible to run as a freshman at WSU. Rupp ran his race on the fastest running surface in the world. The San Diego track was so hard that Mills said he had blood blisters in his feet after three miles. Shoes? Only runners of the time can tell you the difference between Nike track spikes now and Dassler Brothers spikes of forty years ago.

Yet Lindgren not only ran faster than Rupp in absolute terms, he broke the standing 6 mile world record and the 10k mark set by Ron Clarke on conversion. That they didn't actually run a 10k was not Lindgren or Mills' fault. Col. Dan Hall the meet organizer in San Diego had promised Mills that there would be a 10k finish line and clock in his attempt to be the first man under 28:00 for that distance. Hall balked the day of the event which almost caused Mills to withdraw except for the remarkable pressure Lindgren had endured to come to San Diego despite the NCAA ban.

Galen Rupp is a great runner and I will be cheering for him to beat Lindgren's 6mile/10k on conversion real AJR if he runs the distance again anytime soon (not possible at the NCAA regionals this month). Gerry Lindgren, too, is a man of many failings and a tortured personal history that many people cannot applaud as a runner because they cannot see past the man.

But, let's face facts. Lindgren's Junior records in absolute and comparative terms dwarf Rupp's accomplishments to date. This should not make one think less of Rupp and his coaches. It should only clarify the enormity of Lindgren's accomplishments 40 years ago. Rupp may very well win a bunch of NCAA crowns and set records. Until he does, though, Lindgren's 11 of a possible 12 NCAA national titles, world record at 6 miles, and American records in the 3 mile, 5k, and 6 miles are the collegiate and Junior gold standard. I doubt very much we'll ever see a runner of his merits again.

[gh]

Re: Rupp vs Lindgren

<<... That they didn't actually run a 10k was not Lindgren or Mills'
>fault. Col. Dan Hall the meet organizer in San Diego had promised Mills that
>there would be a 10k finish line and clock in his attempt to be the first man
>under 28:00 for that distance. Hall balked the day of the event which almost
>caused Mills to withdraw except for the remarkable pressure Lindgren had
>endured to come to San Diego despite the NCAA ban.>>

I'd be interested in finding a source to back up this contention, which I've never heard before. T&FN says that Mills asked Col. Don Hull (not Dan Hall) if he could go for the 10K, but says they couldn't mark the track in time.

Track Newsletter is a bit more explicit, saying, <<The only possible disappointing aspect to the record was that the distance had not been over the more standard 10,000m distance. In fact, SHORTLY PRIOR TO THE RACE [caps mine] Mills told an official, "If you can have the course set up for 10,000m I can give you two records." But the officials were unable to measure the longer distance in time.>>

I can't fathom Mills threatening to pull out of the race, but perhaps you've got a better source.

[psaltejohn]

Re: Rupp vs Lindgren

My source for this is a phone conversation with Billy Mills on 8 February 2004 in research I was doing with my daughter for Lindgren's USATF Hall of Fame nomination. Hence the misspelling of Hall/Hull, for which I plead "guilty" and apologize for my careless transcription. I have spoken with Mills, Tracy Walters, Kenny Moore, and Lindgren about this race and the times/circumstances of the contest. Lindgren's autobiography of sorts is now available through www.GerryLindgren.com and Mills told me that he was writing his running autobiography, which if it includes just the stories of the Tokyo 10k final, the 65 AAU Nationals, and his experiences at the bizarre 68 Olympic Trials that he shared with me will be worth buying and reading. A point overlooked is that Mills said after the 6 mile WR that he expected the record to fall and did not think it was a great accomplishment because the record was vulnerable - as Ron Clarke demonstrated convincingly by shattering the record six weeks later in Oslo in what amounted to a solo run.

[psaltejohn]

Re: Rupp vs Lindgren

About Mills threatening to pull out of the race, Mills told me he had only called Gerry to get him to come to San Diego AFTER being assured by Col. Hull that there would be a 10k line and clock. He was about to pull out after discussing it with his wife Pat on the day of the race because he thought he only had one chance at the WR and would be better served by doing that in Europe later that summer. Mills said he changed his mind when Lindgren confronted him about the threatened withdraw which he felt was an attempt by Mills to psyche him out. The blood blister comment was relayed in Mills saying that he almost dropped out of the race then (at 3 miles) again because he thought he would could do better in Europe. As it was, he got caught up in the duel with Lindgren who was running to qualify for the US national team to race the Soviets in Kiev later that year (and prove his 64 win in LA was no fluke).

[gh]

Re: Rupp vs Lindgren

I'm having trouble squaring Mill's recollections with what T&FN printed at the time. (Or moreso, what the magazine DIDN"T print at the time; why would such a major story have gone unreported?)

Searching further in the issue I find a pre-race quote from Mills: "I've finally found time to train steadily and am coming along fine. But I'm nowhere near top shape. I might really go for a fast one if the track is not too hard on the legs."

And this from Hull (who was the AAU's executive director at the time):
"Billy Mills pulled me over just before the start of the 6M and told me he'd like to give me a present of a World Record. He said he would make it two records if I could have the course set up for the 10,000 as well. But it was too late to have the 10,000 measured and marked."

What really doesn't fly for me is Mills' contention that he convinced Lindgren to come and run in a record 10,000. That ignores the signature theme of the whole year, which was the NCAA/AAU war--perhaps the ugliest chain of politics in the sport's U.S. history--in which Lindgren was one of the prime figures.

Lindgren was intent for months on defying the NCAA, and as Cordner Nelson wrote in the next issue of the magazine, <<... the rich and powerful NCAA cracked down on individual athletes with all the conscienseless force of the Nazis taking reprisals against innocent hostages. Chief target in this gang war was a little, helpless-looking freshman who happens to be on his way to becoming the greatest runner in the history of the world [aside--consider that statement with Lindgren's place in history relative to Rupp]. For two weeks, Gerry Lindgren was hounded by adults of influence. Finally, because he has the courage and patriotism of a George Washington or a Nathan Hale, little Gerry flew to San Diego, hid out until meet time, and broke a World Record.>>

Now it may well be that a call from Mills helped convince Gerry to come, but fighting the power structure was The Sparrow's motivation.

[SKAPMUSIK]

Re: Rupp vs Lindgren

I was just on Lindgren's site, is it a typo or did he run 8:06 indoors for 3000 as a High Schooler in the mid 60's...that is rolling!!!

Certainly would have expected faster then that outdoors...did he ever give it a run at it...I'm pretty sure before Rupp's 8:03, Trautman(he was the man) owned the record at 8:05...

[26mi235]

Re: Rupp vs Lindgren

Thanks you guys, nice history on a talented and driven athlete (two, counting Mills). One of my two first recollections of seeing top distance runners was when Billy Mills came to our HS and gave an inspirational talk, probably about 1965 or 66. (The other was when I went to my first real track meet for my (16?) birthday on June 4 for the Compton Invitational; Ryun ran a 3:53.7 mile, a time one-tenth of a second off of the world mark held by Michael Jazy of France -- they flashed the 3:53 part on the scoreboard and then we waited "forever" to get the tenths.)

[psaltejohn]

Re: Rupp vs Lindgren

To answer Mr. Hill's question, alas, I can only say, "I don't know." I have written Gerry to get his recollection and asked him to make a response to these two questions on this thread:

(1) Did you always intend to run in San Diego "to fight the power structure" or did Mill's call make the difference in your decision to run in San Diego?

(2) Did Mills say on the phone that he had assurances from the AAU and Col. Hull that you would be running a 10k - and did he threaten to pull out on the day of race when there was only a 6mile finish line?

Here's hoping for a straight answer!