USA's wealth in the 400m may benefit the 800m

[Snake]

Re: USA's wealth in the 400m may benefit the 800m

"The 800 US herd is very puzzling, seems there should be 100 americans under 145.... we should have at least 20 under 144... and a few under 143... this is one (or rather another) event Americans should totally dominate.."

"I know there are exceptions but for the most part here in the U.S. most kids want to be a sprinter. Hell most distance runners would want to be sprinters if they could. It is the mindset of the kids. The 800 just is not cool to most kids. If you polled a large number of H.S. track kids, my guess is that 90% would not know who won the last Olympic 800. In my mind the 800 is the best race in track. I just wish more kids would give it a try."

Change these statements to their opposites, replace "America/Americans" with "Kenya/"Kenyans", and you've described the current situation and the reason it exists. Distance running IS cool to the Kenyans, so much so that I'll bet a lot of runners with very good 400 potential go to the 800/1500 instead.

America's wealth in the 400 will instead benefit the 400H, just like it always has.

[kevinsdad]

Re: USA's wealth in the 400m may benefit the 800m

Kenya has many world class 800 runners, and almost no world class 400 runners. The U.S. has just the opposite. This suggests to me (1)that these are two very different events, one clearly in the sprint category and the other clearly a middle distance event, and (2)that the Juantorena type of runner is the exception and not the rule. Keep in mind that Borzakovsky can run 46 for 400, but has also run close to a 4 minute mile equivalent.

[tafnut]

Re: USA's wealth in the 400m may benefit the 800m

>>Kenya has many world class 800 runners, and almost no world class 400 runners. >The U.S. has just the opposite. This suggests to me (1)that these are two >very different events, one clearly in the sprint category and the other
>clearly a middle distance event<<

I could be way off here, but while I agree that a great 800 runner does not guarantee a great 400 runner, I think 90% of great 400 runners could be great (relative to today's standards) 800 runners. Because it IS at the threshold of aerobic/nonaerobic requirements, I think it's easier to go up than down (which is true of most, if not all, the running events). I also think the 800 standard today is WAY off where it should be. The WR is good, but averaging 50 for consecutive 400s should be achievable now. [not that I could even do one of them when I was in college]

[helen]

Re: USA's wealth in the 400m may benefit the 800m

A few thoughts on this one- some of the potential 800 runners will never see it because they are experiencing much success playing midfield on the soccer pitch.
Another is that it takes a savy HS coach to get his :59/ :49 girls and boys to realize they only have enough speed to excel at the 800 on up.
But in the spirit of the original post, if you are not experiencing the sucess you desire at your current distance, you either have to work a whole lot harder/ smarter, or move up in distance.

[bad hammy]

Re: USA's wealth in the 400m may benefit the 800m

The ‘cool’ factor definitely comes into play when analyzing the current lack of US 800 strength vis-a-vis the 400. As for getting 400 guys to move up, one factor left unsaid so far is the pain factor – the 800 hurts more to run (and the 400 is a pretty painful race). Additionally, the training hurts more and takes more time. More pain, less cool.

But I agree with many of the other posters: if you could get some of the good 400 folks to move up, with proper training the US could be a major force in the 800.

[helen]

Re: USA's wealth in the 400m may benefit the 800m

one factor left unsaid so far is the pain factor – the 800 hurts more to run (and
>the 400 is a pretty painful race).

Although I have only run 1 hard 800 in the past lifetime, I don't agree the 8 hurts more than the 4. As I recall from my school days, the first 400+ feels great- real fast, but not painfully so. Then it sneaks up on you, so with 200 to go, you are at about 95% painfulness, increasing slowly over the next 100m, so it is maxed out down the homestretch. Similar to the 400, but you do get a whole lap of "gee, this is not so bad, and I am doing ok"
Others?

[doug0914]

Re: USA's wealth in the 400m may benefit the 800m

i vaguely remember someone on the staff at track and field news said that arthur lydiard once said about henry carr, let me (lydiard) train him for a couple of years and the world record in the 800 meters would be under 140, also longtime great british coach frank horwill said in an article that if quantorena had trained on horwills 5 pace system his potential would have been 136.6, i think to make the usa team in the 400 all conditions being good will require under 44.5, if some of these runners who have been stuck at about 45 flat for a few years opted to become 800/1500 runners, the usa could possibly dominate those events, just my opinion.

[TNT]

Re: USA's wealth in the 400m may benefit the 800m

About the race itself, I agree. Having run many hard 400m's and 800m's myself, I find the after race pain much worse in the 800m, usually in the form of coughing until I barf and then wanting to sleep for the rest of the day. In the race itself, I don't think you tie up as much in the last 100m of the 800m as you do in the last 100m of the 400m. You will see some even paced 800m's (like Yuriy Borzakovskiy), but you don't see many 400m's run well without a slower first 200m. As a Master, I now prefer the 400m over the 800m because my recovery is quicker and more dignified.

[eldrick]

Re: USA's wealth in the 400m may benefit the 800m

>i vaguely remember someone on the staff at track and field news said that
>arthur lydiard once said about henry carr, let me (lydiard) train him for a
>couple of years and the world record in the 800 meters would be under 140, also
>longtime great british coach frank horwill said in an article that if
>quantorena had trained on horwills 5 pace system his potential would have been
>136.6, i think to make the usa team in the 400 all conditions being good will
>require under 44.5, if some of these runners who have been stuck at about 45
>flat for a few years opted to become 800/1500 runners, the usa could possibly
>dominate those events, just my opinion.<


those times seem ludicrously fast, but if you look at it from another angle, maybe not so

look at the ratio in doubling distances for elite runners:

say el g in 800 ( theoretical time) & 1 mile:

1'43/ 3'43 = ~ 0.46

( OK it's not quite a double, but i'm not going to work it out exactly )

1500 to 3k:

3'30 / 7'30 = ~ 0.47

4'00 / 8'25 = ~ 0.48

for 5 & 10k:

13'00 / 27'00 = ~ 0.48

14'30 / 30'00 = ~ 0.48


take a 45s guy:

if he had the "endurance" factor of an elite middle distance guy/gal, then his theoretical time could be anywhere between:

45 / 0.48 to 45 / 0.46


= ~ 1'34 - 1'38

the only message i'd suggest, is that there is a lot more meat to come off the bone

[marknhj]

Re: USA's wealth in the 400m may benefit the 800m

Anyone know how Juantareno trained? As a 400m runner who could then hang on or an 800m runner who was bloody fast?

[bad hammy]

Re: USA's wealth in the 400m may benefit the 800m

> Anyone know how Juantareno trained? As a 400m runner who could then hang on or an 800m runner who was bloody fast?

He was a 400 guy who moved up. He world ranked 8 times in the 400, starting in 73. His first (of 4) 800 ranking was in 76. Don't know anything about his training.

[Per Andersen]

Re: USA's wealth in the 400m may benefit the 800m

All I know is that in 1977 (his greatest 800 year) he trained on only 10 to 15 miles a week.

[paulthefan]

Re: USA's wealth in the 400m may benefit the 800m

I seem to recall a TV special on The Horse .. or was it a segment of a special on Cuban athletes.. well at any rate they showed that massive stride gobbling up countryside like a supersized PeterSnell....... so 15 miles per week sounds kinda low...