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Maria Mutola is underated

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  • #16
    Re: Maria Mutola is underated

    Garry's reply got posted just as I was typing my subsequent one. I don't believe those numbers. Since there has been strict drug control, only women's shot put went down drastically. Recent puts of Nelson and Toth are not that far from the times of Barnes, Timmerman or GÅ©nthor. Hammer and discus may be a little down. By the way, that website you placed doesn't work.
    "A beautiful theory killed by an ugly fact."
    by Thomas Henry Huxley

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    • #17
      Re: Maria Mutola is underated

      >Garry's reply got posted just as I was typing my
      >subsequent one. I don't believe those numbers.>>

      You should. Particularly since he said the improvement was what you could expect over FOUR YEARS, not instantly. And if you don't think the performance in other evnets has changed, go back to our home page, hit Lists and navigate your way to the all-time women's lists. As a sample, here's what the all-time top 10 looks like

      1:53.28 .. Jarmila Kratochvílová (Cze) 83
      1:53.43 ..... Nadezhda Olizarenko (SU) 80
      1:54.44 ............. Ana Quirot (Cub) 89
      1:54.81 ........... Olga Mineyeva (SU) 80
      1:54.94 ....... Tatyana Kazankina (SU) 76
      1:55.05 .......... Doina Melinte (Rom) 82
      1:55.19 ........... Maria Mutola (Moz) 94
      ................ Jolanda Ceplak (Slo) 02
      1:55.26 ............. Sigrun Grau (EG) 87
      1:55.32 ....... Christine Wachtel (EG) 87

      Average mark is 17 years old! Throw out Mutola and Ceplak and it's 20! Unless there was a race of Amazons that mysteriously died out at the end of the '80s (oh look, the fall of Communism, what an incredible coincidence!), you've got to look elsewhere. Apply Occam's Razor. (response prepared by the "sarcastic" me)

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      • #18
        Re: Maria Mutola is underated

        Thanks gh, I said the same thing earlier when someone said Maria was overrated.

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        • #19
          Re: Maria Mutola is underated

          Well at least I now know what Occam's razor is...for anyone else who'd never heard of it!!!

          http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/OCCAMRAZ.html

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          • #20
            Re: Maria Mutola is underated

            It was more succinctly explained to me by John Powell many years ago when he was the WR holder in the discus and said that in coaching others he used the KISS method (Keep It Simple Stupid)

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            • #21
              Re: Maria Mutola is underated

              I guess the GDR athlete's also used the KISS principle of preparation (Keep Ingesting Steroids Stupid)...

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              • #22
                Re: Maria Mutola is underated

                or to paraphrase the political slogan, "It's the steroids, stupid."

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                • #23
                  Re: Maria Mutola is underated

                  Let me remain a "devil's advocate" a little bit longer. One has to be careful with applying the Occam's razor to an isolated situation. Of the 800 runners that Garry lists, only Kratochvílová had the musculature suspicious of steroids use (actually she was so ugly even as a teenager that it's hard to tell). The res of them sure didn't look like it. Olizarenko (if I recall her physique correctly) and Kazankina for sure looked rather slim. Since I've been told that all East Germans were on drugs, we'll leave Grau and Wactel out of it. What about other running events? Only Koch and Kratochvílová broke 48 in 400, the times of Kocembová, Bryzgina and others of that period compare with Valerie Briscoe, Perec, 1500 and up has been improved (except the Chinese anomaly). Look at Paula Radcliffe. Times under 2:20 were great even for men (actually, her time boggles my mind).
                  "A beautiful theory killed by an ugly fact."
                  by Thomas Henry Huxley

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Maria Mutola is underated

                    Stop looking at physique...It's not always a dead giveaway, unless you can monitor it over a period of time(years). You see the muscles or the times but what you don't see are the practices that are beyond what you thought a human could do...not just one day, but day, after day, after day. There's testing, but it's not 100%. Let's say you were able to train(recover)at a high level for a year, and then you laid off the vitamins(not) for a month or longer. You've trained at such a high level that you'll be able to retain most of your strength, speed, training. So you're still in peak shape. And you pass the test. I know this thread is about Mutola, but I can't believe people are still asking...Do steroids work? Wake up! And what you read is just the East Germans...there's a lot more worldwide where that came from. We'll never know anything for sure except the few whose biochemists make a boo-boo from time to time and fail a test. But if she/he walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

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                    • #25
                      Re: Maria Mutola is under-rated

                      >I think this athlete is far underated. If she
                      >were an american, the likes of Regina Jacobs(
                      >...even though participating in 1500M) would
                      >hardly be mentioned. She [Regina] would pale in
                      >comparison. Maria has won as many races as
                      >contested, except for 1 or 2 that may have
                      >narrowly eluded her in an illustriuos career.

                      DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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                      • #26
                        Re: Maria Mutola is underated

                        I appreciate everything Garry and 400guy1 are saying. I have no doubt that in certain events there is a clear benefit to the steroids (in a women shot put it clearly adds 2-3 meters). I've been observing this phenomenon ever since the anabolic steroids appeared on the scene in the mid-60's(I guess I am giving away my age).What I am saying is that I am not convinced it has a necessarily beneficial effect for every discipline of performance. 400guy1 mentiones vitamins. The effect of vitamins on performance (and training) is clearly a placebo effect. Is it possible that in certain events the steroids have similar mechanism of action? Don't misinterpret what I am saying. Strict ban must be maintained, there is no doubt about it.
                        "A beautiful theory killed by an ugly fact."
                        by Thomas Henry Huxley

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Maria Mutola is underated

                          "The effect of vitamins on performance (and training) is clearly a placebo effect. Is it possible that in certain events the steroids have similar mechanism of action?"

                          Disagree on both counts - vitamins have a distinct effect on your typical adolescent/college athlete who doesn't eat right. I have seen many runners diagnosed with deficiencies for which vitamins are prescribed. Secondly, the chemical effect of steroids in the body can never have a placebo effect. There is, however, no beneficial gain unless the athlete 'overworks,' which many do not, thinking that steroids magically create more muscle.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Maria Mutola is underated

                            Tafnut, as far as the steroids are concerned, I have posted questions, repeatedly, rather than making any kind of statement. As far as the vitamins are concerned, in the developed world i.e. USA, Canada, most of (at least west) Europe, there is hardly ever a vitamin deficiency, no matter how much junk anybody including teenagers would eat. They may get fat, lazy, what have you, but not defficient. A placebo effect is real, when somewhat believes that the pills they are taking are helping, they are helping. That's why it's so difficult to establish a good study for any dietary supplements.
                            "A beautiful theory killed by an ugly fact."
                            by Thomas Henry Huxley

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Maria Mutola is underated

                              Garry - Let me ask you a question I've always wondered about. Do you think any male has ever thrown 70 feet in the shot who was clean?

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                              • #30
                                Re: Maria Mutola is underated

                                The first one, at the very least.

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