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  • Shot Put technique question

    I found a video of Michelle Carter's indoor HSR at
    http://www.throw1deep.com/Michellerecordpage.htm

    (a throws site I never knew about)

    in the video Michelle has no reverse at the end of the throw like I was always taught. Is the reverse passe? Or is that an ideosyncratic tendency of hers?

  • #2
    Re: Shot Put technique question

    Some people believe that the most efficient transfer of energy to the shot is achieved by throwing without a reverse, similar to the way Reidel throws the discus. Some coaches say glide and reverse, some say rotate, others say don't reverse in glide or rotation. I don't know if you can say anyone is wrong.

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    • #3
      Re: Shot Put technique question

      In virtually every throwing/hitting situation in sports, the follow-through is vitally important, as logic dictates that the arm and body need to continue through the release, necessitating a reverse (or foul). I understand the need to 'block' or 'check' the momentum to transfer the velocity, but you don't go to zero and then reverse accelerate - which is what she does in the throw. Yes, no, maybe so?

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      • #4
        Re: Shot Put technique question

        The no reverse technique is effective(though I could not do it if my life depended on it)-all the power if force directly into the shot, if someone reverses and reverses bad there can be wasted energy, the thing is she is following through with the upper body and the block is great.
        Like I said I reverse and it works but I know people who dont and it works too, you just have to get familiar with a style.

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        • #5
          Re: Shot Put technique question

          It's not like I'm going to get into an argument with her coach! He's easily in the list of the five best track/football players ever - with Hayes - who are the Oly gold/NFL All-Pros?

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          • #6
            Re: Shot Put technique question

            Have you seen Reidel on video?
            http://www.throwfarther.org/videos/disc ... l_6972.mpg

            What Michelle is achieveing is very close to what he does, she has a small movement at the end to balance herself after the shot is released, Reidel has a more exeggerated movement because he has greater leg strength and more forward momentum. There more than one way to throw, I'm not going to tell Wilkins or Schult that they did it all wrong.

            On Brooses comment, I've been told fixed foot throwing won't get you as far as with a reverse, but you will be increadibly consistent. If you time your reverse wrong you lose loads of energy, if you time it right you should throw further.

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            • #7
              Re: Shot Put technique question

              Dyslexia always sets in when I'm tired. I should read before I post.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Shot Put technique question

                On what Tim said I use a reverse and I have had some problems with timing, I have been known to rush into a throw if that makes sense.

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                • #9
                  Re: Shot Put technique question

                  I believe that in the Shot and Discus you reverse when your momentum and techniques demand it ... I would not reverse just to reverse ... when performing a standing throw I would rarely reverse because you would not have built up much speed ... blocking is vital.

                  I also think that all throwers should be able to throw with 'fixed-feet' at least as a drill ... when attempting a fixed-feet throw you can often reveal some other techniques problems you may be having ... especially balance in the Discus.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Shot Put technique question

                    Tim - I looked at the Riedel video (thanks) and I am stupified (not hard to do) as to how little effort Riedel looks like he's producing. It literally looks like a first warmup toss just to get the ol' muscles loosened up. I remember the Powell/Wilkins wars and they looked like runaway freight trains in the ring. Is that really R's style? Someone give that boy a Jolt Cola.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Shot Put technique question

                      >It's not like I'm going to get into an argument
                      >with her coach! He's easily in the list of the
                      >five best track/football players ever - with
                      >Hayes - who are the Oly gold/NFL All-Pros?>>

                      Are you saying that Michael Carter, like Hayes is an Olympic gold medalist? He "only" won silver. I know that Hayes is the only guy ever to win Oly gold and a Superbowl ring.

                      Wonder how many others have gold and all-pro status? Ollie Matson comes to mind as an all-pro with a silver and a bronze (danged Jamaicans).

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                      • #12
                        Re: Shot Put technique question

                        Since this thread has gotten just a bit away from its origins, note that I posted a related Oly gold/title question on the Historical side of the board (if you ever dare to go there! :-)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Shot Put technique question

                          <In virtually every throwing/hitting situation in sports, the follow-through is vitally important, as logic dictates that the arm and body need to continue through the release, necessitating a reverse (or foul). I understand the need to 'block' or 'check' the momentum to transfer the velocity, but you don't go to zero and then reverse accelerate - which is what she does in the throw. Yes, no, maybe so?>


                          Not so hot, you have the correct concept of the throwing "POP", or reverse/follow-through and don't let anyone confuse you, though its not so much the voluntary arm/body continuance through the release, but instead the absolute necessity to do so that is premordial, if the objective is to utilize optimum short muscle (total body) explosiveness, not wasting any muscle group's energy contribution to the throw.

                          Michelle Carter has great balance, speed, obvious coordination and I'm sure a good amount of strength for her age, etc., not to mention genes, but regardless of who her dad and/or coach is, once she discovers a "meaningfull post", or the inclussion of her leg power and explosiveness into her throwing, she will emmediately throw another 6-10 feet farther. Now, in the spirit of this posting-what does this mean? Well, that she will have to simultaneously learn how to reverse, not necessarily to follow-through, as it were, but to harness the release and contain the circle.

                          With respect to the Riedel example you need to know that, well,... in the first place you need to draw a line between the shot and the discus with regard to a reverse. It isn't hardly as crucial in the discus as it is in the shot generally speaking and particurlarly so depending on the individual's stature and length of extremedies (all other attributes being equal). When it comes to the throwing implements you have to exclusively compare apples ONLY to other apples, period. If Riedel ever learned to include his legs into the release of his throws (though they always looked rather weak for his stature) he would have thrown another 30 feet.

                          With bushup I disagree. If you have optimum "momentum", I call it "POP", and the correct technique for yourself, then, like Johnny Cochran would say "you MUST reverse". There's no particular rasionale to reversing on standing throws and fixed feet excercises only develope undesired habits and timing.

                          And Broose, I detect far too much general complacency from you, for a weight thrower. If someone is reversing incorrectly or out of timing etc, then they need to WORK at improving it, thats all. The one, single, biggest "waste of energy" that you can count on day in and day out is the exclussion of the lower body power and explosiveness to the throwing process. and I'm sorry to say that it is not just a matter of becoming familiar with a "style". Manny loosers do just that, they bocome all to familiar with WRONG styles and ingraned BAD technique and this is NOT "alright". Sorry!!

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                          • #14
                            Re: Shot Put technique question

                            wow - that sounds good (i.e., it's what I thought), but even I find it hard to believe that Carter (and dad - 5 feet?!) and Riedel (and coach - 30 feet?!) don't 'get' it. There must be more to the equation than the common sense I thought I had and that you confirm.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Shot Put technique question

                              Not so hot - Yes Reidel does look like he's taking it easy but look at the video again, it's amazing how fast he's actually moving at the end. There are loads more videos on throwfarther, and yes he always throws like that.

                              The Root - Your right about comparing apples, but as I've said different coaches have different beliefs on how to throw. Broose mentioned timing problems, nearly every thrower I know has a timing problem and yes they do try to correct it. If however you can throw farther with fixed feet because you can't time your reverse right which way would you throw in competition? Has anyone seen other athlets from Michelles school? Do they all glide the same way?

                              On Reidel and 30 ft well different people, different techniques, I don't think you can definitively say that with a different technique someone would throw farther. Throwers have to chose a technique that suits them, what Reidel (PR 71.50) has chosen has given him the consistency to be 5 time world champion. Only 4 people have thrown further.

                              Last time he beat Alekna who has a PR of 73.88. Maybe he has sacrificed distance for consistency but it seems worth it. Interview on http://www.american-trackandfield.com/news/WCD6UP1.html

                              His technique is completly opposite to the Russian approach where you don't drag the discus behind you around the circle, you kind of catch up with it to accelerate it when you hit the middle. They claim that biomechanically this is the best way to throw. There's a discussion on the Ring about it at the moment. http://www.web-ster.com/kcarr/dischat.html The Russian approach would be different to the Wilkins or Powell technique. You've got to remember that Powell & Wilkins didn't have access to discoi with 95% rim weight, would they have thrown farther if they had?

                              Look at the shot, Nelson rotates differently to Godina, he's adapted the technique to something that suits him.

                              Conclusion? There are many ways to throw far, not one way. You have to chose one the suits you, or the athlete you're coaching.

                              Something we all should have said earlier, well done to Michelle and best of luck to her in the future.

                              Tim
                              www.irishthrowersclub.com

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