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  • #46
    Final Thoughts

    I've never "sponsored" any technique in my posts...

    You mentioned that you know Taylor, Reidel, Schult, yet you conveniently failed to answer my question about them improving astronomically with a reverse.

    Finally, Michelle Carter has tremendous technique-she is on balance, she keeps the shot back, she does a tremendous job blocking, has a wide power position and pushes on the ball forever.

    From watching her throw you can tell that she is very strong and athletic-not necessarily explosive. She throws far because her technique is well suited for a powerful female thrower.

    For you to suggest that she can improve by 6-10 feet with a reverse shows that you lack an understanding of what makes an implement go far.



    • #47
      Re: Final Thoughts

      Enough of all this crap - this will be settled in a steel cage match between "Rhino" The Root and "Hulk" Hunter on Summer Smackdown.


      • #48

        First, the only events the "East Germans and Russians" have "kicked our butts in" are the jav and hammer simply because we dont throw them here until college.

        Second, Reidel + Schult have never failed a drug test. I dont know if you've ever seen Lars Reidel before, but he is very lean-about 6'6" and 245 lbs. Schult isnt a very big or outrageously strong man either.

        Also Americans have used a ton of drugs as well-Tafralis, Hunter, Barnes, Logan, Plucknett. So as far as I'm concerned your drug comment doesnt hold water.



        • #49

          So Root, if you know Reidel personally what did he say when you told him he could throw 30ft further with a reverse?

          You are also coming across as dogmatic in your approach to the throws, everyone else here seems to agree that there is more than one way to throw. Blaming drug use as the reason the Eastern Europeans throw far with a range of techniques is a poor way of defending your beliefs and like Hunter I don't accept it. Are you suggesting that the only way to throw far without drugs is your way?


          • #50

            Dear Sprinterman, I mean Root - Tim was being diplomatic, by saying 'dogmatic' he really meant narrowmindedly obtuse. How much experience can you have and not see that everyone skins a cat a little differently?


            • #51
              Re: shot technique

              I understand what you're saying and agree 100% with you on just about every count. Unfortunately most others here don't seem to get it, but you have to expect that in this board. I have been coaching for nearly 40 years and I tell you I've never read a more insightful and logical explanation of the reverse and it's importance to the effectiveness of the complete throw.

              If you don't have a book out, you should publish one, but if you do, let us know the title please.

              By the way you're absolutely right about the Eastern Europeans and Russians. You know, I don't know where this guy Hunter comes from, but I was coaching the javalin and the hammer to HS kids 40 yrs ago and still do.

              Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us and I ask you to please continue to do so 'cause there's always gonna be someone out there that will GET IT and that alone is worth it.

              Thanks again!


              • #52
                Re: shot technique

                coach Tony=the Root


                • #53
                  I'm done

                  I think I've explained myself well, I've even given Root my throwing background in an email(he didnt return the favor)

                  "Coach Tony" you may have been coaching the javelin for 40 years, but you know as well as I that you are one of very few jav coaches.


                  • #54
                    Re: I'm done

                    Coach Tony, you think The Root should write a book? How about Jay Silvester? He's written a book, it's called The Complete Book of Throws.

                    On the man himself:
                    IAAF Site ... marks.html
                    First man over 60m: 60.56 Jay Silvester USA 1961

           ... index.html
                    70.38 Jay Silvester USA 27 08 1937 1 Lancaster, CA 16 05 1971

           ... /men.shtml
                    US National Championships
                    1961 195-8 Jay Silvester SCVYV
                    1962 202-2 Al Oerter NYAC
                    1963 198-11.5 Jay Silvester Unat-UT
                    1964 201-1.5 Al Oerter NYAC
                    1965 205-7 Ludvik Danek CZECH
                    202-7 2-Jay Silvester Unat-UT
                    1966 193-9 Al Oerter NYAC
                    1967 205-10 Gary Carlsen Unat-CA
                    1968 203-9 Jay Silvester Unat-UT
                    1969 208-10 Jon Cole Pac Coast Cl
                    1970 205-4 Jay Silvester Unat-UT
                    1971 208-4 Tim Vollmer US Army
                    1972 213-0 Jay Silvester IntermtnTC

                    US record holder for 9 years until Wilkins.

                    Now I've only got to read the discus throwing bit but he admits that there are two ways, you reverse or you don't. The two techniques are different even from the back of the circle.

                    Coaches who believe that there is only one way to throw make me feel sorry for their athletes. If a former world record holder can accept that there are different ways to throw why can't you and The Root?

                    My throwing backround? I'm a social thrower, i.e. I do it for the craic and I try to help as much as I can. I know I don't know everything but I'm openminded enough to look at the Olympics, World Championships and the all time lists and realise that if 19 throwers can break 70m in the discus using different techniques, and 15 throw over 22 in the shot using glide or rotation, that there is no single correct way of throwing. Anyone who belives there is is misleading not only themselves but the people they coach.

                    My website is if you want a laugh or feel you can help any of the athletes, as judging by the comments of The Root I have't a clue what I'm doing.


                    • #55
                      Re: I'm done

                      I was just kidding about Root knowing anything. I would however buy his comic book, cuz he is kinda funny.


                      • #56
                        Re: I'm done

                        >I was just kidding about Root knowing anything. I
                        >would however buy his comic book, cuz he is kinda

                        Mr. Root, I just want to let you know that the last posting above is not legitimately mine. Someone else has posted it using my handle. Probably one of these frustrated block heads that cannot understand your message and has now lost all composure. I will not post on this board again. What ever I have to get to you I will use your email.

                        Imposter, who ever you are, you're a jackass and should be ashamed of yourself. Nice way to ruin it for the rest of us.


                        • #57
                          Re: I'm done

                          I think the root ruined it long ago.


                          • #58
                            Re: Shot Technique

                            Well, well...seems we're having some fun now, doesn't it fellas?!

                            <If a former world record holder can accept that there are different ways to throw why can't you and The Root?> <if 19 throwers can break 70m in the discus using different techniques, and 15 throw over 22 in the shot using glide or rotation, that there is no single correct way of throwing>

                            Tim, Tim, Tim- First off let me congratulate you on your site. I've been aquainted with it and its very well put together. One of my favorite. Now relative to your quote above I'd simply like to ask you to please site, where in this entire thread have I made the statement that there's just one way to throw or as your next quote says, "Are you suggesting that the only way to throw far without drugs is your way?"

                            You're either being buffaloed or just not paying attention. Here I have isolated the statements that I've made on the subject for your benefit:

                            "...if your technique is heavy with post and pop and fierce generated momentum, then your style will have to include a good reverse to contain the thrust (and circle).",

                            "the reverse should always be at least attempted, but never without adequate supervision and good visual resources. Given the inherent quest of throwers to throw farther it would be ludicrous to ignore the huge benefits that a good post, pop and reverse offers face value, in comparison to the fixed leg option."

                            "I feel that it is absolutely necessary (the reverse) if you're interested in applying the massive forces and "pop" from the lower body into your throw. The lower body has some of the largest, most explosive muscles in the human being."

                            And a week ago I posted the one below exclusively for your benefit:

                            "Tim, you naturally don't change a base technique or alter it just for the empty sake of doing so, but instead you do so after much intelligent deliberation and study, with improvement through physical logic, being the ultimate objective. Its all about the continual effort to better utilize more of the available forces of physics, physiology and other scientific disciplines in the throw, in every thrower's quest to throw farther. Very simple! No resources should be left on the "table" or circle without being at least tweeked or tapped. Throwers will grow into their own base techniques but they should never fear learning a more effective method or adding to their implanted techniques for the sake of improvement. So its not pleasant and it takes work and practice to change, but after all practice is the key to the learning curve and an athlete is ever learning how to improve performance. (except perhaps your friend, Hunter, who believes himself to be a "success" and authority at age 21, and who in his Jr. year in college hasn't even broken 60 feet)

                            Riedel has chosen to leave his leg's forces on the "table" and has been fortunate enough to have the physical attributes to throw far through massive speed and centrifugal force. And about consistency, let me tell you its not fixed leg throwing that produces it, but instead and once again its repetition and drilling with the consciencious effort to maintain top muscle and sensor memory that brings consistency.

                            Nelson doesn't really spin any differently than anyone else out there, he has just been smart enough, persistant enough and brave enough to augment his spin in certain very important power areas, reaping more effective results than most. Al Feurbach did the same thing with the glide 30 years ago."

                            **And finally perhaps the simplest way to put my views on the reverse is this posting by "ajp" last Monday:

                            "You may not want to hear this, but the reverse is not part of the throw. The putter reverses to keep from fouling -if the putter can keep from fouling without the reverse then he/she is not using all of his/her leg strength, and if he/she is not using his/her legs, then he/she is not throwing as far as he/she could. It's elementary physics. Everything Mr. Root has said is true. Take it or leave it."

                            And, say, by the way, "I do it for the craic", what does "craic" mean anyway?


                            • #59
                              Re: Shot Technique

                              Stop it - you're killing me - I can't stop laughing.


                              • #60

                                I agree with many of the points you've made.

                                HOWEVER Michelle Carter's strengths are her power, her block and the long distance in which she applies force to the ball. Personally I think her technique is picture perfect. Especially for a strong FEMALE putter.

                                Have you ever seen a thrower reverse and spin 360 degrees in the ring and watch the throw land? We all have. Thats spinning is lost energy that should be transferred into the implement. Very few if any throwers can consistently perform the reverse you envision without doing this 360 or breaking at the hip during the throw. This too is basic physics. Unless on a projectile is launched from a rigid, stationary surface, energy is lost. -Sorry, I couldnt help myself, I'm a physics major.

                                Alas, I've gone off on a tangent. I dont think anyone is disagreeing with a reverse being very effective. I just think we are all mystified by your predicted 10' improvements. I just dont see Carter throwing 65' simply by reversing. (Or Taylor throwing 80')