Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

El G and Ayhan: Revolution?

Collapse

Unconfigured Ad Widget

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • El G and Ayhan: Revolution?

    Have El G and Ayhan changed 1500/miling forever? No more of the classic miles from the past (3 laps building to a last-lap kick finish) -- just fast from the gun, increasing pressure through the middle, a last lap barely faster than any other. Will 1500/miles become like 800s: a faster first half then the second? (No one's really kicking in the 800; it's just who slows down the least, even though the effort appears to be a kick.) Coe recognized this change in the 800 in his era, and it meant Ovett and other kickers couldn't compete at 800 anymore. Is that one of the problems with U.S. miling, they're still running it as it was run years ago, when the world has moved on?

  • #2
    Re: El G and Ayhan: Revolution?

    exactly.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: El G and Ayhan: Revolution?

      As youngsters, we were all taught to pace ourselves in longer races -- leave something for the finish. In Africa, perhaps they tell their children "Run as fast as you can from the start and hope that you don't collapse from exhaustion until after the finish"?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: El G and Ayhan: Revolution?

        A thought...

        There are so many reasons why Americans are not as fast as our African counterparts. You said exactly one of them. Did you know that in Kenya ITS OK to drop out of races? There is NO shame in going out at 12:55 pace in a 5k and then dropping out at 3 or 4k. NONE. In America our attitudes are f'd up for 2 reasons and one stems from the other.

        1- we think it is shameful to drop out (therefore we never really push ourselves because we're afraid of "embarassing" ourselves by not finishing.

        2- Because we're scared of not finishing, we never really know how fast we can go and run "within" ourselves.

        We as Americans tend to think too much. Because weeks of workng out may have gone bad, we go out slower... because we think 13:10 is too fast for our current fitness we go out at 13:30 pace. Because we ran 16:10 last week we shoot for only 15:59 the next.

        Just run fast with the leaders, for God's sake. Trust you've been seeded correctly, go for the win, run fast, surprise yourself, get seeded in a faster heat next time, go for the win, run faster,etc.

        There was a young teenager from Kenya who used to run the first lap of his 800s in 49-50 seconds. He would fade badly, finishing in the low 1:50s and high 1:40s. A few years later he ran 1:41.11. He said at the time, "I go out so hard because each race and each year I can go a little further and one day I will be able to run the whole race that fast." Paraphrased from Wilson Kipketer...

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: El G and Ayhan: Revolution?

          Good points, Conto. A fair bit of what has happened in the US and in Europe is mental. The other factors (like easier lifestyle, sports like soccer stealing runners, blah blah) have been pointed out ad nauseum. Bayi was the forerunner, no pun intended, of things to come. Coe realized that the type of attitude you mentioned was the way to go - go hard from the start! Many athletes may find they STILL have a kick after going out at what they previously considered a pace that's too fast. The days of guys like Ovett weren't over, they just needed to change their attitude about what a fast first lap was in the 800, or how to run the race, and adjust training as well. Overtt certainly had the native speed to run faster over the 800. Coe started going out in 49 - 50 regularly. Yeah, it cost him here and there, and people always look at the Euro champs in 78 when he went out blazing, and was nailed by Beyer and Ovett. A year later, he was going out fast, but holding on longer. Two years later, even longer. So long it seemed to take forever for the world to begin to catch up. Probably much the same as we're seeing in the 1500 on up. People forget how outrageously fast Coe's pace in his first 1500 record seemed. For those days, he was flying for the first half. I remember in SI the article on John Walker being the first to bust a sub 3:50, and the talk about Bayi and his fast paces, and Jim Ryun remarking he'd wished he'd done some experimenting with going out really fast. Even back then Ryun saw that was the only way to push times down.

          Hey, a little off the beam, but not much. I also remember Coe remarking a couple of years ago when Borzakovskiy first broke 1:44, then 1:43, that Borzakovskiy's style didn't make much sense, because he felt for a speedy, world class 800 man, if fresh, going out in 49 shouldn't take up (much) more energy than going out in 51. He may be right. Bucher had his best season (before the last two injury plagued campaigns) by going out sub 50 almost every race.

          No one has really been "kicking" for the most part over the end of the 800 in decades - with the exception of Borzo once in a while and Ryun's record. In the 1500/mile, we see guys going out fast, and still kicking, like El Guerrouj. But we don't see any Americans with the attitude, never mind the talent. Maybe Webb will come around, if his problems this past season were connected to whatever finally made his appendix pop instead of being in his head. You never know.

          (I also think Americans and Europeans may develop, on average, slightly slower than say, E. Africans, as whites tend to physically mature a bit more slowly than blacks)

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: El G and Ayhan: Revolution?

            yes, the 1500 will become a race run regularly w/ a faster start than close. it's a physiology thing: the faster runners learn how to best max out their energy supply and then change tactics accordingly. the old school steady pace strategy is based on outdated ideas of O2 delivery determining performance, whereas the newer approach stems more from power production and other muscle related factors and is absolutely an extension of optimal 800m racing tactics. I'm not sure US milers are deficient in a tactical sense really, but simply undergunned in speed capability. mileage is not the issue for sure. US runners with the genetics for <330 1500m (stember, webb, krummenaker the most prominent examples) will also naturally prefer and benefit most from lower mileage and higher intensity training.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: El G and Ayhan: Revolution?

              US
              >runners with the genetics for <330 1500m
              >(stember, webb, krummenaker the most prominent
              >examples) will also naturally prefer and benefit
              >most from lower mileage and higher intensity
              >training.

              Drew, do you have any ideas on why Stember seems to have stalled? He does seem to have the make up to run much faster at 800 and 1500 than he has. I don't know much about his training regimen(s) at all.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: El G and Ayhan: Revolution?

                Drew...

                Stember has trained like a pure 800 guy who STEPS UP to the mile ever since his "decline". When he was on the Stanford Team training with the cross guys in the fall (and having some small success as well) he was running 3:35. I am an advocate for speed... but also for moderate mileage (85ish for most elite milers). HOWEVER, there is a time and place for both. Michael pretty much just eliminated the mileage and his performances have suffered.

                M

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: El G and Ayhan: Revolution?

                  Conto - you say you recommend 85 miles - is that max or average, with some very high mileage weeks in the "off season". Interesting info on Stember, thanks.

                  I've always felt that besides avoiding injuries, individuals finding the routine that works for THEM is part of the problem. The population in the US is much more diverse, ethnically, racially of course than Morocco, Kenya, etc. What system(s) work for those guys may not work for Yanks - or breaking it down, the systems may not work for Irish guys, or Italian guys, or Caribbean blacks, etc. It's a big puzzle. There are legitemate generalizations that can be made, but it's real work to put it all together. (I enjoy reading Peter Coe's take on training, etc. In his book, he seems to have been ahead of his time. Bright fella.)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: El G and Ayhan: Revolution?

                    Charles-

                    Man... I could talk about this stuff for hours! 85 is a very generic number but one that I feel is right around what most elite milers do on average during their "base phase." Some are definitely higher and some are definitely lower. Like you said, it totally depends on the individual. That's why keeping a STRICT log is so important. Of course, I think its silly to be a "slave to the log" and the way to really use one is to keep one very accurately, but don't actually tally the results til the end of the season. That way you don't worry about missing a day, if you have a bad workout, etc.

                    Anyway, a lot depends on mileage. I have my friend running 65-70 on singles. More than that and he'll break down since he works 50 hours a week.

                    There are others that may thrive off 85 or more (Jason Lunn bumped his mileage up and trained a bit at altitude this year and it helped him out tremendously).

                    Yet others (Dan Wilson) have often gotten injured off significantly less mileage.

                    Its all individual... but 85 TENDS to be a nice generic number... during base!

                    M

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: El G and Ayhan: Revolution?

                      Charles, didn't really answer your question... that's average during base (both phases) and during your strength phase (both phases).

                      There are 2 phases for each for the following reasons:

                      Base phase number 1 is used to get your running legs back. This is after your summer break and takes about 6 weeks. Its ALL easy mileage with the paces and distances increasing as fitness improves.

                      Base phase 2 is one in which many of your runs are near LT runs (4-5 out of 7) One is a long run and 1-2 are very easy.

                      Strength phase 1 is the next phase and consists of hills, plyometrics, drills, tempos and fartleks.

                      Strength phase 2 adds in longer intervals in the 800-3k range.

                      Then a major speed phase (sprint speed... 100s, 150s, 200s, 300s, 400s) as well as more intense plyometrics

                      The last phase is a racing phase.

                      The first 4 phases you maybe average 85, the speed phase probably down to 65, the racing phase is probably closer to 45.

                      M

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: El G and Ayhan: Revolution?

                        Thanks Conto. (Don't tell Brian Gates about the plyometrics - he didn't like the one of MANY abstracts I could site showing the benefits of weights and or plyometrics)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: El G and Ayhan: Revolution?

                          Plyometrics are not effective. I'm not going to waste my time explaining in detail why - let's just say they tear down muscles.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: El G and Ayhan: Revolution?

                            2:01-1:58...

                            my progression of my 800 time in hs after changing nothing, running workouts the same pace, and after stagnating on 2:01 for weeks, but adding 4 weeks of plyos.

                            M

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: El G and Ayhan: Revolution?

                              You mentioned Peter Coe favorably; his training regimen put much more emphasis on speedwork throughout the year. You seem to be recommending a much slower buildup, not doing speedwork until very late in the cycle. Coe advocates speedwork (anaerobic capacity at 95% or more of all-out speed) as early 5 weeks into the year's training. Yes, more speed occurred later on, but central to his plan is multi-pace training over the entire year. Your plan seems to stress much more of the "build a base" thinking that may be questionable today; how would you respond to the suggestion that it's outmoded?

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X