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El G and Ayhan: Revolution?

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  • #16
    Re: El G and Ayhan: Revolution?

    I seem to remember reading somewhere that Coe said if he couldn't step onto the track and run 1:46-1:47 in practice he wasn't training properly. I was suprised that he was always in such shape - year round.

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    • #17
      Re: El G and Ayhan: Revolution?

      >Plyometrics are not effective. I'm not going to
      >waste my time explaining in detail why - let's
      >just say they tear down muscles.

      No, they just tear down old, outmoded ideas on training.

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      • #18
        Re: El G and Ayhan: Revolution?

        Miler manque,

        good observation (and memory about me referring Coe).

        The first thing is that Seb was a very special athlete so we should take things he did as things designed for a prodigy. Like all training philophies and programs, we should not follow them for a T (like Brian Gate's suggests) but rather pick up on certain points of training and use that for our own knowledge.

        For example, Peter Coe believed in intense hill work. I agree with that. You gain a temendous amount of speed from hills and I suspect a large part of keeping his speed during his base phase was because of the intense steep hill work.

        Also, Mr Coe had Seb running his base mileage very fast. It seemed ludicrous when I read it, but after reading more and more, and after experiencing it myself, I realized that although Seb would run about 5:00-5:30 pace during his base phase, this was in fact probably just sub his LT pace.

        Miler, I also think JK has some good things to say in regards to base building and mileage... though I think 80% of what he says more applies to 10k guys and marathoners. However, evidence does suggest that "base training" or training the body to utilize oxygen efficiently, is necessary. The increase in capillary density (and hence the ability to carry oxygen) is so important in all our running.

        Also, keep in mind that Coe started proper training at a young age whereas most Americans do not so we are often playing "catch-up" (this is why on average we peak later in life).

        Anwyay, Coe was a believer that you never lose touch with any particular "system" used in racing. I agree. That's why I believe in strides (speed and form), hills (speed, power, strength), plyometrics, etc even during base and a shorter tempo run once a week even while in the racing phase to mantain the cardiovascular fitness derived in teh beginning of the year.

        Also, keep in mind that I have not outlined a complete schedule and have neglected to include things like during the 2nd base phase ending each longer workout with 200s and things of that nature.

        Cheers,

        Michael

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        • #19
          Re: El G and Ayhan: Revolution?

          Oh yeah, Miler, I thought you might be interested in the following e-mail exchange to "my athlete". Sent earlier in teh day before any of these discussions...

          "-----Original Message-----
          From: Michael Contopoulos [mailto:[email protected]]
          Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 10:47 AM
          To: **********
          Subject: RE: yesterday


          OK... good. Are you still updating you log? What's the address again? I'm
          keeping notes as well, so its OK if you have not been. BTW... how often are
          you doing strides? How are you doing them? How fast? How much rest? How
          far?

          I want to start doing some things with you.

          The first is that I want to get to a track (tonight?) sometime in the next
          week. I want you to run and a;ll out 400... no clowning around. Flat out
          as fast as you can do it. I'm going to time you, but I'm not going to let
          you know what the time is. We're going to do that once every couple months.

          The next thing I want you to do is to start religiously doing strides 2x a
          week (Mon and Thursday would be good days if you continue to hammer with Joe
          on Wed with your long run on Sun...). You can do them like you normally do,
          but I want you to focus on form more than anything else. Imagine you're
          running a mile and its the last 100 and you need to concentrate on holding
          form.

          In a couple weeks I also want you to start some form drills with your
          strides. Very informal right now... some high knees, butt kicks and those
          skip jumps. Concentrate on pumping your arms straight up in front of you
          and driving your knee forward and up.

          All sound good?

          I don't want this stuff to be TOO structured yet, but I want you to make
          sure you're doing all this stuff 2x a week, not on consecutive days. It
          will be more structured in a few months."

          Anyway, the 400 "time trial" is to see how his speed is today and what effect "base" is having on it. I will keep you updated if you like...

          M

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          • #20
            Re: El G and Ayhan: Revolution?

            Don't know if you looked at the El G training at www.kingofthemile.com. Training seems to be from 1997, seems to be truthful, the website is new to me but the article is older. Also quite fast in the early stages, 1000m. repeats at 4-min.-per-mile pace.

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            • #21
              Re: El G and Ayhan: Revolution?

              >Plyometrics are not effective. I'm not going to
              >waste my time explaining in detail why - let's
              >just say they tear down muscles.

              Charles - if you have to impersonate me in order to have something to attack, you are truly grasping at straws. You got dissed because you tried to call me out with an uneducated opinion. Get over it.

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              • #22
                Re: El G and Ayhan: Revolution?

                Oy, enough of this juvenile stuff. Is this going to wreck every thread?

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                • #23
                  Re: El G and Ayhan: Revolution?

                  Distance runners should quit doing all aerobic training and focus solely on strength training. Because this article says so: http://superslow.com/main.html

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: El G and Ayhan: Revolution?

                    Seriously,

                    I spend time on the majority of my posts and would like serious input and discussion on what I write. If some useful info is going to be lost because of a 1000 crap posts I'm done posting. E-mail each other... isn't that why you have to put one down. The epo accuser already shot me one insulting e-mail... can't you all do that rather than mess up a good thread?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: El G and Ayhan: Revolution?

                      Miler Manque, Charles... e-mail me... I'd be interested in discussing more off the boards.

                      M

                      Brian... you have some good things to say. Keep an open mind though. It will make you a better runner.

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                      • #26
                        Re: El G and Ayhan: Revolution?

                        >Have El G and Ayhan changed 1500/miling forever?
                        >No more of the classic miles from the past (3
                        >laps building to a last-lap kick finish)>>

                        There's miling for records (push it all the way) and miling to win big-meet championships (without a countryman that is), where a Cacho can still pop a 52-second last lap to win.

                        Everything goes in cycles.

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                        • #27
                          Re: El G and Ayhan: Revolution?

                          Perhaps, but if the very best (El G and Ayhan) are winning championships AND other meets (I don't think El G always goes for a record -- in Zurich he probably just wanted to test his fitness, and Ayhan is just trying to win in a fast time) by running as fast the first lap as the last -- and if the next champion after these two follow that model -- then maybe the 1500 has moved on, like the 800 -- and we'll have to look to the 5,000 for the buildup to a last-lap kick.

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                          • #28
                            Re: El G and Ayhan: Revolution?

                            guys, I'm not sure why Stember stalled. It is one of the more interesting questions in US running. far more interesting really than why Webb stalled going to higher volume I'd sure like to see Stember's log book and talk to him about this myself. I will stick to my statement that he is a <330 talent, and better off as a lower mileage runner. He might need to do a bit more than krummenaker but certainly not much more.

                            Some runners and coaches do throw out the baby with the bath water when shifting focus over to speed. I dont believe this discounts the quality/speed approach only the specific methods. For example, "sharpening" alone wouldnt be sufficient. You still have a good amount of work to do (see Krummenakers or Coe's training records). The more fast-fiber middle distance athletes can get in trouble w/ intensity also, displacing farther from equilibrium with the training, attaining higher lactate values and experiencing greater cellular stresses. There is also a risk with the higher ventilatory work, bronchitis etc. Bottom line you still have places to break down in this sort of training, just as with higher volume. I admire Stember for making an honest effort and recognizing his best direction was trying to pull his 800m time a bit lower.

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                            • #29
                              Re: El G and Ayhan: Revolution?

                              coe used drugs, epeo....one yr he was a 3.59 miler, the next yr. 3.48.....hello!

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                              • #30
                                Re: El G and Ayhan: Revolution?

                                That's just so wrong . . . Coe was very young when he made his breakthrough -- not uncommon to drop quite a bit at 22, particularly when you had his basic speed (he didn't bulk up to get the speed, either). Was Webb on drugs when he improved to 3:53? Coe sustained those times over a very long career -- he ran 3:29 at the age of 29, 1:43 at 32 years old; two golds, two silvers; not the profile of a drug cheat.

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