Coe's mileage and todays (tomorrow's?) 800 runners

[sprinterjones]

Re: chart

Im wondering if weve ever had an olympian in the 400/800 meters over 30? I ask becasue some runners run a certain race in college and when the speed slows they move to the 800.....any statisticians out there?

That chart seems anitquated -- it runs in contrast to Perronet's research, as well as the figures quoted in BTDR.

ehh???

he has 167 citations in pubmed & the one that seems mostly closely related to the subject in hand is from 1989 !
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... query_hl=2

i'm afraid you better find me some fresh meat, as that one is archaeological !

here is a youthful chart, which shows a smooth relationship between all out running speeds & duration of running:
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/86/6/2059/F3

Underperforming at the end of the 800m is often the result of poorly developed aerobic resources attempting to match the output during the largely anaerobic first phase, as well as cleaning up the mess left behind.

i don't know which bums you're referring to here, but they sure as hell aren't called kipketer, borzakovskiy,cruz,kratochvilova

[eldrick]

Re: chart

That chart seems anitquated -- it runs in contrast to Perronet's research, as well as the figures quoted in BTDR.

ehh???

he has 167 citations in pubmed & the one that seems mostly closely related to the subject in hand is from 1989 !
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... query_hl=2

i'm afraid you better find me some fresh meat, as that one is archaeological !

here is a youthful chart, which shows a smooth relationship between all out running speeds & duration of running:
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/86/6/2059/F3

Underperforming at the end of the 800m is often the result of poorly developed aerobic resources attempting to match the output during the largely anaerobic first phase, as well as cleaning up the mess left behind.

i don't know which bums you're referring to here, but they sure as hell aren't called kipketer, borzakovskiy,cruz,kratochvilova

[kevinsdad]

Re: energy systems

By 90s, you're 91% aerobic (at that point) -- no wonder you see so many guys go backwards in the final 150m.[/quote]

I date back to when the 600 yards was a big event on the indoor circuit. The last part of that race often proved quite amusing. many fine 440 runners carried heavy loads coming in. As I recall, many of the best at the distance, including Martin McGrady the best of them all, were not standout 400m men, suggesting that even at that abbreviated distance something more and different than sprinter speed was necessary to make the transition.[/quote]

[trackhead]

chart

That chart seems anitquated -- it runs in contrast to Perronet's research, as well as the figures quoted in BTDR.

Underperforming at the end of the 800m is often the result of poorly developed aerobic resources attempting to match the output during the largely anaerobic first phase, as well as cleaning up the mess left behind.

[eldrick]

Re: energy systems

It's a big difference in energy systems -- after 30s your instantaneous energy substrates are 50/50 aerobic/anaerobic and only tilt further aerobic as the race wears on. By 90s, you're 91% aerobic (at that point) -- no wonder you see so many guys go backwards in the final 150m.

i don't give much credence to this energy system blab

it all depends what pace you are running the race - if your ambling the first 30s, your energy systems are going to be 50++/50-- ( aerobic/anaerobic ) & if you're hammering the first 30s, then it will be 50--/50++

empirical quotes like this are of little use without context of pace

The effort is negligible -- it's the amount of time it takes you to access the system. CreatinPhosphate will always be first -- weather it's a 60m or an ultra. Then largely anaerobic contributions and then quickly giving way to mostly aerobic contributions.

the graph of running speed ( for events above 200m ) in correlation to the distance ( with energy systems appended ) shows a linear relationship ( it shoud i imagine have mentioned that the distances are in some form of log terms, as you're not going to get an ~ even spacing for events ranging from 100m to M otherwise:

http://www.nismat.org/physcor/energy_supply.html

there is no magic cut off point at 30s of running ( here regarded as the nebulous "near maximal" pace ) which is the supposed key to running 800m - the graph shows a smooth gradual reduction in speed with increasing distance with the interchange of energy systems attached

supposed underperforming at the end of an 800 is not due to some mysterious energy consumption which is completed by 30s of near-maximal running - look for another explanation

[trackhead]

Re: energy systems

It's a big difference in energy systems -- after 30s your instantaneous energy substrates are 50/50 aerobic/anaerobic and only tilt further aerobic as the race wears on. By 90s, you're 91% aerobic (at that point) -- no wonder you see so many guys go backwards in the final 150m.

i don't give much credence to this energy system blab

it all depends what pace you are running the race - if your ambling the first 30s, your energy systems are going to be 50++/50-- ( aerobic/anaerobic ) & if you're hammering the first 30s, then it will be 50--/50++

empirical quotes like this are of little use without context of pace

The effort is negligible -- it's the amount of time it takes you to access the system. CreatinPhosphate will always be first -- weather it's a 60m or an ultra. Then largely anaerobic contributions and then quickly giving way to mostly aerobic contributions.

[eldrick]

Re: energy systems

It's a big difference in energy systems -- after 30s your instantaneous energy substrates are 50/50 aerobic/anaerobic and only tilt further aerobic as the race wears on. By 90s, you're 91% aerobic (at that point) -- no wonder you see so many guys go backwards in the final 150m.

i don't give much credence to this energy system blab

it all depends what pace you are running the race - if your ambling the first 30s, your energy systems are going to be 50++/50-- ( aerobic/anaerobic ) & if you're hammering the first 30s, then it will be 50--/50++

empirical quotes like this are of little use without context of pace

[Twid]

Ovett won the English School Junior (U15) boys 400m in 1970 in 51.8
http://www.gbrathletics.com/bc/esb.htm

Coe started as a distance runner , English Schools Intermediate champ 3000m in 73, think he was 2nd at the English Schools XC at some point also. Remember reading that Ovett was a 200m guy at about the same time - anyone confirm that?

[trackhead]

energy systems

400 and 800 are farther apart than any other pair of consecutive distances. Just look at the difference in pace: WR at 400 is 43.18, WR at 800 is 50.56 per lap, i.e. almost 15% slower. In contrast, the WR at 1500 is only 8% slower than at 800, and 10000 is only 4% slower than 5000. This comparison shows how dissimilar 400 and 800 really are. Sure, some people can be successful at both, but then, some people have also been successful at both 800 and 10000 (Aouita) or 1500 and marathon (Gebrselassie). They are rare exceptions, though.

It's a big difference in energy systems -- after 30s your instantaneous energy substrates are 50/50 aerobic/anaerobic and only tilt further aerobic as the race wears on. By 90s, you're 91% aerobic (at that point) -- no wonder you see so many guys go backwards in the final 150m.

[trackhead]

400/800 vs. 800/1500

Endurance wins out:

Top 800m Runners who have backgrounds competing at 1500m or longer
Athlete (Nation)

800m PR (all-time rank)
1500m/mile PR (all-time rank)
Accolades

-Wilson Kipketer (DAN)
1:41.11 (1)
3:42.80 (Not ranked) /3:59.7 (764)
gold 1995/1997/1999 World 800m, silver 2000 OG, 2003 WIC 800m, 2004 OG bronze
-Sebastian Coe (GBR)
1:41.73 (2)
3:29.77 (14)/3:47.33 (9)
1980/84 Olympic 800m silver, 1500m gold; 1986 European 800m gold
-Joaquim Cruz (BRA)
1:41.77 (3)
3:34.6 (148)/3:53.00 (113)
1984 Olympic 800m gold, 1988 Olympic 800m silver
-Sammy Koskei (KEN)
1:42.28 (4)
3:38.50 (603)

-Vebjørn Rodal (NOR)
1:42.58 (5)
3:37.57 (421)
1996 Olympic 800m gold
-André Bucher (SUI)
1:42.55 (7)
3:38.44 (589)
2001 World 800m gold*
-Hezekiél Sepeng (RSA)
1:42.69 (11)
3:38.24 (541)
800m silver 1994/98 CWG, 96 Olympic Games, 1999 World Championships
-Japheth Kimutai (KEN)
1:42.69 (12)
3:34.14 (125)
1998 Commonwealth 800m gold
-Steve Cram (GBR)
1:42.88 (16)
3:29.67 (12)/3:46.32 (4)
1983 1500m gold, 1982/1986 Commonwealth & European 1500m gold, 800m bronze
-Mbulaeni Mulaudzi (RSA)
1:42.89 (17)
3:39.70 (Not ranked)
800m gold 2002 CWG, 2004 World Indoors, bronze 2003 World Championships, 2004 OG bronze
-William Yiampoy (KEN)
1:43.00 (19)
3:34.12 (122)
4th 2001 World Championships 800m
-Peter Elliot (GBR)
1:42.97 (18)
3:32.69 (58)
Gold 1990 CWG 1500m, silver 1987 WC, 1988 Olympic 800m
-José Luiz Barbosa (BRA)
1:43.08 (23)
3:37.04 (360)
800m bronze/silver 1987/1991 World Championships
-Benson Koech (KEN)
1:43.17 (29)
3:32.09 (62)
1992 World Junior 800m gold
-Mehdi Baala (FRA)
1:43.15 (27)
3:28.98 (6)
1500m gold 2002 European Champs., silver 2003 World Champs., bronze 2002 World Cup
-William Tanui (KEN)
1:43.30 (31)
3:30.58 (18)
1992 Olympic 800m gold
-Nixon Kiprotich (KEN)
1:43.31 (32)
3:38.76 (665)
Silver 1990 CWG, 1992 Olympic 800m
-William Chirchir (KEN)
1:43.33 (33)
3:29.29 (8)
2002 Commonwealth 1500m silver
-Rich Kenah (USA)
1:43.38 (36)
3:37.63 (434)
Silver 1997 World Indoor, Outdoor 800m
-Rick Wohlhuter (USA)
1:43.5h (41)
3:53.3h (127)
1976 Olympic 800m bronze
-Rob Druppers (NED)
1:43.56 (45)
3:35.07 (169)
1983 WC 800m silver
-Mike Boit (KEN)
1:43.57 (46)
3:33.67 (89)
1972 Olympic 800m bronze
-Abdi Bile (SOM)
1:43.60 (48)
3:30.55 (19)
1987 World Championship 1500m gold
-Earl Jones (USA)
1:43.62 (49)
3:36.19 (266)
1984 Olympic 800m bronze
-Laban Rotich (KEN)
1:43.65 (51)
3:29.91 (13)/3:47.65 (10)
1998 World Cup 1500m gold, 1999 World Indoor 1500m silver
-Andrea Longo (ITA)
1:43.74 (55)
3:39.46 (Not ranked)
1997 European Under-23 800m gold, 1998 European cup 800m gold

Table of top 800m runners with backrounds of competing at 400m or shorter
Athlete (Nation)
800m PR (all-time rank)
400m PR (all-time rank)
Accolades
-Patrick Ndururi (KEN)
1:42.62 (10)
45.71A (553)
7th in 1997 World 800m Champ.
-Norberto Téllez (CUB)
1:42.85 (12)
45.27 (260)
1997 wc 800m silver, 96 Oly 4x4 broze
-Frederick Onyancha (KEN)
1:42.79 (13)
45.2hA
1996 Olympic 800m bronze
-Billy Konchellah (KEN)
1:43.06 (18)
45.38A (321)
1987/1991 World 800m gold
-Paul Ereng (KEN)
1:43.16 (21)
45.6 (490)
1988 800m Olympic gold
-Mark Everett (USA)
1:43.20 (24)
44.59 (53)
9 time USA champion
-Alberto Juanterrena (CUB)
1:43.44 (33)
44.26 (18)
1976 Olympic 400m/800m gold

*It should be noted that André Bucher has a significant history of racing at longer events. He has run 14:06 for 5000m, 30:41 for 10000m (at more than 2km of altitude), and ran in the WJCC in 1995.

[Powell]

400 and 800 are farther apart than any other pair of consecutive distances. Just look at the difference in pace: WR at 400 is 43.18, WR at 800 is 50.56 per lap, i.e. almost 15% slower. In contrast, the WR at 1500 is only 8% slower than at 800, and 10000 is only 4% slower than 5000. This comparison shows how dissimilar 400 and 800 really are. Sure, some people can be successful at both, but then, some people have also been successful at both 800 and 10000 (Aouita) or 1500 and marathon (Gebrselassie). They are rare exceptions, though.

[slowcoach]

The 800 is middle distance, and the 400 is a sprint.

Four words: The Horse - Alberto Juantorena.

It can and has been done, at least once, and was inspiring.

Art Wint, Mal Whitfield, Rudy Harbig...

I'm sure people can come up with other examples of why these events are related. (Gary Reed, even)

[mojo]

Hi Helen.

I think it is mostly a mental thing. Most 400m runners and hurdlers were sprinters to begin with.
I was just a so so athlete (But wth loads of potential! :wink: ) and I was a sprinter who moved up to the 400mH. I had a coach who wanted me to run the 800m and he trained me to do just that. Mentally though I was still a sprinter-the training did pay off though.

Gary Reed was a decathlete who moved to running ...first the 400m and then the 800m.
Not many athletes can adjust mentally to the change in training.



That's my ramble on the topic. :roll:

[bad hammy]

The 800 is middle distance, and the 400 is a sprint.

Four words: The Horse - Alberto Juantorena.

It can and has been done, at least once, and was inspiring.