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Women's 4x100 - US!

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  • #76
    Re: Women's 4x100 - US!

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    • #77
      Re: Women's 4x100 - US!

      Rob...fyi

      choking Yes
      'bottling-it' Definately not!

      US guys...Anglo/American translation: Your "bottle" is your nerve. Losing your bottle or bottling it means you lost your nerve/choked etc. Hope that's helpful lol!

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      • #78
        Re: Women's 4x100 - US!

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        • #79
          Re: Women's 4x100 - US!

          Again I agree with you AND disagree with you ... The East GErmany women as a group were the most awesomely prepared women sprinters ever ... No doubt about it ... They churned em out like Mercedes churns out cars ... And if we were comparing the GDR's sprint MACHINE with the US's I'd agree that the GDR would win hands down ... But that is NOT what we are comparing ... We are saying take each countries top 4 ever and put them against each other ... Sort of akin to saying take the best 4 cars Mercedes ever made and put them again the best 4 Lexus has ever made ... And in this instance the US has quite possibly the 4 best ever ... And I am not just talking 100 times ... I had incorporated your use of split times ... And I have also looked at competitiveness ... And yes while the US has produced a lot more "flaky" (as in can't handle the pressure) sprinters than the GDR, Ashford and FloJo beat them at their best !!! And that includes Koch and Wockel and Gohr ... And Krabbe only had one high level championship against Americans so to say what would have happened is almost as much speculation as the hypothetical relay itself .. If we are talking history, then history says that FloJo and Evelyn were GDR killers ... That Marion has dominated all that have come before her based on the clock ... And that Torrence competed against the likes of Ottey and Privalova and Devers and never faltered ... The foursome that I named is as accomplished, decorated, and SOLID (mentally, physically, psychlogically) as any that could be produced by the GDR ... I might not be able to put together another foursome from the US to match it (or the GDR's) but I don't have to ... We are only talking 4 against 4 here ... And to ignore what the US best four has done would be to ignore history ... They would win ... Now 4 teams against 4 teams and the GDR would probably score the most points ... But that was not the premise ...

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          • #80
            Re: Women's 4x100 - US!

            As for the pedigree issue, my team has 10 gold, 7 silver, and 2 bronze not counting relays and they missed the 80 games ... So on "pedigree" I would have to say they stand about equal ..

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            • #81
              Re: Women's 4x100 - US!

              I think some people are underestimating Krabbe's sprint potential.

              Think back to Tokyo, where she dipped under 11s with 10.9.... now what was the wind reading..? -3.0! In favourable conditions (+2.0m/s), it would be worth 10.55! In normal conditions, it's worth 10.75. Marion may have ran a 9.75 split in Edmonton (and a 9.54 in Sydney), but they were on the anchor legs. When running anchor, you don't have to slow down to accomodate a hand-over at the end of your 100m. Athlete's anchor split times are pretty much (or at least should be) always faster than their other leg split-times.

              If Krabbe was in a 100m race which had the same conditions as Johannesburg when Marion set her PB (1750m altitude, +1.2m/s wind), then she would have run somewhere in the region of 10.50 - 10.55. You can work it all out on JRM's wind calculator:
              http://desert.jsd.claremont.edu/~newt/track/wind/

              Of course, most of this is just all speculation, but you can't deny Krabbe's potential. Just look at the calibre of athletes who she beat that day (Torrence, Ottey, Privalova, Ashford, Cuthbert, Onyali... pretty much the same ones featured in the 200m, where Krabbe won by a bigger margin, this time into a -2.4 wind.)

              The only reason why Krabbe never fulfilled her potential is because she stopped competing at 22 yrs old (because of the ban). In her heyday and in good conditions (fast track and decent wind), then she would be a very close match for Marion indeed.

              Back to the relay teams discussion, I'd agree with the US team of Torrence, Marion, Flo Jo, Ashford, but it's tough to say if they'd beat the best of the GDR. If the USA put in the relay work for the passes, etc, then they'd have a good chance of beating them. (Of course, we're talking in a fantasy world here, so in Conway's world, the USA put in a load of baton passing work, whereas in Rob's world, the USA team forgot - yet again - to put in the required baton passing work).

              Also, if you look at Flo Jo in Seoul, her passing leaves quite a lot to be desired. Sheila Echols wasn't the greatest relay runner, but Echols handed the baton over the Flo Jo ahead of the GDR team, but after a few strides of the 3rd leg, Auerswald was up on Flo Jo. Another botched pass between Flo Jo and Ashford (Flo Jo was right up behind Ashford, kinda colliding) cost them another few hundredths, leaving even more work for Ashford to do.

              On that relay, Ashford had her work cut out, and ran superbly to take gold. Her split wasn't amazing (10.10), but it was definitely enough to take Gohr on the last leg. She'd definitely be my choice (with her 9.77 anchor split) for anchor leg on a US dream team.

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              • #82
                Re: Women's 4x100 - US!

                Krabbe's time from Tokyo was meant to read 10.99



                But I'm sure you all knew that anyway!

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                • #83
                  Re: Women's 4x100 - US!

                  Why are folks calling Flo-jo a "great" third leg runner? On what evidence? In Seoul, her greatest moment, she did not demolish the GDR or Soviet 3rd leg, in fact GDR had a better 3rd leg than she did. Do not let the 10.49 & 10.61 lull us into this flawed conclusion. Yes Flo-jo is the fastest 100m woman ever but a great 3rd leg, no way.

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                  • #84
                    Re: Women's 4x100 - US!

                    On that relay, Ashford had her work cut out, and ran
                    >superbly to take gold. Her split wasn't amazing (10.10), but it was definitely
                    >enough to take Gohr on the last leg.

                    Everyone here seems to use that race as evidence that Ashford was a better anchor runner than Gohr. It is nothing of the sort !!! Gohr was injured and out of form. She didn't even come close to making the individual 100 final in Seoul, while Ashford was still close to her best ever, clocking 10.81 that year and taking the individual 100 silver. If we're talking best ever, it's the 1983/84 Gohr that we have to put on that team, not the washed-up sprinter she was in 1988.
                    Było smaszno, a jaszmije smukwijne...

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                    • #85
                      Re: Women's 4x100 - US!

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                      • #86
                        Re: Women's 4x100 - US!

                        >Everyone here seems to use that race as evidence that
                        >Ashford was a better anchor runner than Gohr. It is nothing of the sort !!!
                        >Gohr was injured and out of form. She didn't even come close to making the
                        >individual 100 final in Seoul, while Ashford was still close to her best ever,
                        >clocking 10.81 that year and taking the individual 100 silver. If we're talking
                        >best ever, it's the 1983/84 Gohr that we have to put on that team, not the
                        >washed-up sprinter she was in 1988.



                        I'm not saying that (based on Seoul) Ashford was a better anchor leg runner than Gohr - I just said that Ashford's run was enough to take Gohr on that day.

                        Still, at their best (10.76 for Ashford, 10.81 for Gohr, same wind speed for both - 1.7m/s), then Ashford was the quicker of the two. Also, there are less mistakes to be made on the last leg. In theory, all they have to do is get the baton and run! IMHO, Ashford would have the slight edge.

                        Back to the "passing" problem.... the GDR sprinters weren't born as good baton passers and the US sprinters born as natural bad passers. Effective baton-passing is something that gets taught. If the GDR and soviets learnt how to pass the baton effectively, then why wouldn't the US team? We're talking about a fantasy-world scenario here, and so is some people's world, the US would have worked hard at their baton passing. If the GDR team could put in the work to acheive a "baton factor" of 0.47, then why wouldn't the US be able to? They only need a "baton factor" of 1.10 to beat the GDR team.

                        I'm also a bit dubious about these 'baton factor' times. Of the US team you used to determine the baton factor, only one of them (Jones) is included in the 'dream team' relay (whereas the GDR team are exactly the same). Surely it should be down to individual athletes, experience, etc, to determine what the "baton factor" would be...?

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                        • #87
                          Re: Women's 4x100 - US!

                          I hear you Rob ... But the biggest flaw is that you have taken people who are not going to be on the fantasy teams and used their passing ability to determine how well the others will pass ...

                          Might work with the GDR team as they were all very mechanical in the way the worked the relay ... But does not work for the US squad as we have already determined that most of our teams have passed like shit ...

                          The one factor that you have overlooked with each example is that the rivalry between the US & GDR was probably the greatest in history ... Ashford's reason for existence was to beat the GDR - and she did (Wockel, Gohr, Koch et al) ... It is also why in the only race that the US and the GDR had head to head in the 4x1 THE US WON !!!! With 3/4 of your hypothetical team running !!!

                          June 25th 1983 .. US v GDR dual ... Los Angeles, CA -

                          1. 41.63 Alice Brown to Diane Williams to Chandra Cheeseborogh to Evelyn Ashford
                          2. 42.09 Koch to Wockel to Moller to Gohr

                          Yes ... That's right ... Not even close ... History ... So it has been written ... With only ONE US dream teamer AND THREE GDR dream teamers ... In 1983 when the GDR sprinters were all healthy and at their best ... The GDR team ran 41.53, 41.76, and 41.97 in 1983 ... But could NOT beat the US head to head !!!

                          So who froze ?? NO one ... I was there ... The GDR simply got beat by a bunch of competitive US sprinters ... Who had the combined goal of beating the Germans ... And they did ...

                          So now replace Cheeseborough, Brown and Williams with Marion Jones, FloJo and Gwen Torrence !!! Conversation over ... Remember I told you I was at the last US GDR meeting earlier ... THAT was a clue ... I saw it done ... With the GDR in its prime ... Koch and Gohr ran their 100 PR's in 1983 ... Koch was in her 200 prime running 21.76 in 82, 21.82 in 83 and her WR 21.71 in 84 ... Wockel would run her 21.85 in 84 and was low 22's in 83 ... The GDR was ready ... Ran 41.5 in 83 ... Passing was at its best .. Could NOT beat the US head to head ... That is not speculation ... That is History ... So what do you think of history now ???

                          the one thing that people often forget about when "speculating", gambling, prgnosticating is the competitive neature of the individuals ... The East Germans were great and cool under pressure ... Watching that race the US just wanted it more ... And THAT is one thing that my hypothetical squad would have going for it as well ... Torrence, FloJo, Ashford, and Marion are/were not only fast but they wanted/want it deep inside ... None hoped to win, but were determined to win ... That determination combined with great talent would not allow them to lose to their lesser (on the watch)opponents ... Just as their 1983 predecessers refused to lose to those who were supposedly superior !!!!!

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                          • #88
                            Re: Women's 4x100 - US!

                            <I'm not saying that (based on Seoul) Ashford was a better anchor leg runner than Gohr - I just said that Ashford's run was enough to take Gohr on that day.>

                            Not only was Evelyn a better anchor than Göhr (actually, it's not even close), the only anchor, man or woman, in Evelyn's class has been Carl Lewis.
                            "A beautiful theory killed by an ugly fact."
                            by Thomas Henry Huxley

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                            • #89
                              Re: Women's 4x100 - US!

                              Have you ever seen video of Wilma running? There was beauty, grace, and blazing speed.

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                              • #90
                                Re: Women's 4x100 - US!

                                Wow!simply amazing what we allow ourselves to believe. US Silver had to do with fatigue and lack of practice more than anything else. Had Aaron run all heats of the 200 would she have had fresh legs for the relay? Is it more important for an athlete to win an individual medal as opposed to a relay? Should Torri have not run the relay considering her hectic schedule?(who was running faster?). Remember as stated by other posters Torri is on her way up a consistant road that began at USC and she has not taken a step backward since. She was also the only athlete in the World to win 3 medals! I think she is great for the sport and has wonderful potential.

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