Seniors can't catch the Pidgeon

[Jon]

I've mentioned Britain's distance running prodigy - and European 5000m junior champ - before (here) but she deserves another mention. Today, at the UK Cross Challenge* meet in Cardiff, 16-year-old Emily Pidgeon decided at the last minute to enter the senior race (she was originally entered for the junior race). She ended up winning by a clear eight seconds, clocking 19:46 for the 6000m course. To put that in perspective, the junior men (18/19 year old guys) raced over the same distance and medals were won in 19:06 - just 40 seconds faster than 16-year-old Emily (DOB - 1st Jun 1989).

And it wasn't a paltry field that she beat either. The woman she beat to first place (Hattie Dean) was the British Universities cross country and steeplechase champion. The woman who finished third (Kate Ramsey) currently leads the UK Cross Challenge standings and represented Britain at the Chiba Ekiden.

As an update to the thread linked to above, Emily's PBs now stand at:
800m - 2:11.1
1500m - 4:17.83
Mile - 4:50.68
3000m - 9:17.9 (also 9:19.51i after a mid-race fall)
5000m - 16:04.46
2000mSC - 6:43.13A
3000mSC - 10:06.12 (4th on UK senior all-time lists)
10km road - 34:28

Pics from Cardiff:


Pics from Euro Junior Champs:


*The UK Cross Challenge is a series of grand-prix style races for Brits with a points scoring system and an overall winner at the end. Each one is a pretty huge event and attracts many top names on the British domestic scene.

[mojo]

Great result for Emily!

The next Paula in the making??

Not that I want to put that kind of pressure on her. :shock: :?

[Jnathletics]

Great result for Emily!

The next Paula in the making??

Not that I want to put that kind of pressure on her.

Then why did you say it???? :roll: Let her enjoy her accolades without having to be compared to others. Your always putting too much pressure on the young ones, Vic. No wonder your athletes skip their sessions with you. :wink:

[EPelle]

Jon, thanks for the scoop and results... that is awesome to see that she continues to have fun.

[eldrick]

Re: Seniors fail to catch the Pidgeon

As an update to the thread linked to above, Emily's PBs now stand at:
800m - 2:11.1
1500m - 4:17.83
Mile - 4:50.68
3000m - 9:17.9 (also 9:19.51i after a mid-race fall)
5000m - 16:04.46
2000mSC - 6:43.13A
3000mSC - 10:06.12 (4th on UK senior all-time lists)
10km road - 34:28

very interesting stats but such a mixed-bag to make any sense of !

if they were all run in the same season, i'd have to suggest that her 16'04.46 looks the best quality time ( of the flat ones - jumps causes me headaches ops: )

maybe some prelim analysis - probably has ~ 60 speed: coud try a few with 16'04.46:

61 -> ~ 2'10.9 , 4'20.5 , 9'14.2 , 33'59.8

60 -> ~ 2'09.5 , 4'18.7 , 9'12.7 , 34'06.7

59 -> ~ 2'08.0 , 4'16.9 , 9'11.2 , 34'13.5

looks to me she may have ~ 59 flat speed & assuming her 16'04 is her best distance time, she has plenty more to come off her 800 ( ~ 3s ! ), maybe ~ 6s over 3k & maybe ~ 15s of 10k )

it's a tentative opinion, but i think 800 & 1500 shoud be the distances she tries to concentrate in the next few years ( yes, nice 5 & 10k times, but that is too much distance too early & if she considers sc, this at world level is not much to speak off ( she may currently even have a shot of making a global final ) but soon enough this will be inundated by < 4'10 \ < 15'00 galz & then this event will be "toughened up" far beyond her current abilty )

she needs to "slow" down a bit & concentrate on sensible distances for a young gal - work on her 800/1500

[Jnathletics]

Re: Seniors fail to catch the Pidgeon

maybe some prelim analysis - probably has ~ 60 speed: coud try a few with 16'04.46:

61 -> ~ 2'10.9 , 4'20.5 , 9'14.2 , 33'59.8

60 -> ~ 2'09.5 , 4'18.7 , 9'12.7 , 34'06.7

59 -> ~ 2'08.0 , 4'16.9 , 9'11.2 , 34'13.5

How come her 10K times get slower with the faster 4,8 and 15 times? :?

[Daisy]

Re: Seniors fail to catch the Pidgeon

Jon, what about Non Stanford? Was she in these races? She seems like a good up and coming too.

[Jon]

Re: Seniors fail to catch the Pidgeon

Jon, what about Non Stanford? Was she in these races? She seems like a good up and coming too.

She had myriad niggling injuries last year but she's back on track now and her progression will hopefully pick up from where she left things in 2004. In the past year, she has grown five inches (!!), so it will be interesting to see how her body adapts. Much like Emily, she has a great attitude to athletics.


Jn - the 10k times get slower because the more of a 'speed' based athlete she becomes, the less endurance she will have. As a simple example (although probably not the best): Kelly Holmes has far superior 800/1500 bests to Paula, but Paula has the better times for 3k and above.

[Jnathletics]

Re: Seniors fail to catch the Pidgeon

Jn - the 10k times get slower because the more of a 'speed' based athlete she becomes, the less endurance she will have. As a simple example (although probably not the best): Kelly Holmes has far superior 800/1500 bests to Paula, but Paula has the better times for 3k and above.

I think that's more to do with injury and racing. Holmes IMHO could have easily ran a faster 3k then Paula. Its more she was injuried alot and didn't race it.

I've known a lot of runners who when they are running fast 1500's that translates into faster 3k-5k times. The shorter type of training can help you with other events slightly longer. I don't feel the 10k for someone who runs 5k as their base race are affected by running faster at 1500 or even 800. Most times its good to change the pace to improve those longer racetimes. If it were someone who ran exclusively 1500's or shorter or was a quartermiler, I would agree. But a distance runner is not affected by the mental change in distance or pace. I'm sure Holmes would fit the model for the 10k times but Pidgeon wouldn't.

[Jon]

Re: Seniors fail to catch the Pidgeon

Holmes IMHO could have easily ran a faster 3k then Paula. Its more she was injuried alot and didn't race it.

Sorry, but :shock:

Holmes ran her 3k PB (9:01) at the Gateshead GP in 2003, when she was in pretty good shape and injury-free (at least by her standards). I remember watching it and it was a nicely-paced race, won in around 8:36. But Kelly couldn't even hang on to that kind of pace. She was flat-out all the way round and only just made it to the end of the race. She did not like it one bit. Why? Because she lacks the endurance of longer-distance specialists.

After watching that race, the thought of Kelly running 40 seconds quicker is simply crazy! Remember, when it comes to distances as short as the mile and 2000m, Paula has quicker PBs. The distance over which they'd be best matched would probably be the mile. Anything shorter, Kelly wins. Anything longer, Paula wins.

(For whatever it is worth, Elders will be able to explain the whole 'quicker 4/8 times; slower 10k time' in a more straight-forward and mathematical way).

[Jnathletics]

Re: Seniors fail to catch the Pidgeon

Sorry, but :shock:

Holmes ran her 3k PB (9:01) at the Gateshead GP in 2003, when she was in pretty good shape and injury-free (at least by her standards). I remember watching it and it was a nicely-paced race, won in around 8:36. But Kelly couldn't even hang on to that kind of pace. She was flat-out all the way round and only just made it to the end of the race. She did not like it one bit. Why? Because she lacks the endurance of longer-distance specialists..

I disagree, my point is simply the mental state. You state that Holmes hated it. That is why she couldn't handle the pace not because of her endurance. To be a miler, especially one of that caliber, one has to have a strong endurance and the 3k is not that much of a change in distance. Plus, how often did she run the 3k? Running it once a year is not going to get you use to it.

I'm suggesting that Emily doesn't fall in the Holmes mold because she is already racing 5k's or longer (X-C). Therefore, the model of slowing down at 10k will not apply. I'm sure there has to be different models for different types of runners.?

[Jon]

Elders... explain it. :wink:

[mojo]

I am no expert on middle distance running but I do know abit about the energy systems utilized and trained for each event.

Sorry Jn but you are wrong. Training for the 800m and 1500m would not create the endurance needed for the 3,000m.
It wouldn't even be close between Paula and Kelly. :shock:



Yes JN I love to put pressure on young athletes! Come to one of my practices and this is what you will hear: "you WILL be the next Sebrle, you WILL win an Olymoic gold for Canada. I don't care if you are a cute little 9 year old! Only 16? Only 16???? Mary Decker was world class at your age, now move it!!!

If they want to wimp out-good riddance. :twisted:



:wink:

[eldrick]

Re: Seniors fail to catch the Pidgeon

How come her 10K times get slower with the faster 4,8 and 15 times? :?

it happened to me as well when i started having a look at these

you have to remember all those times are assumed to be absolute, flat-out best possible times in current form

i suppose an easy elite example is to examine the 2 guyz who've run

3'29.46 PB & a 3rd who went 3'29.51 PB - it's as close as i'll get to a nice group - i'll call them all

3'29.50

( assuming flat out gun-tape )

3'29.50 with

1'42 -> ~ 45.7 , 2'11.9 , 3'47.0 , 7'39.3 , 13'34.9 , 29'23.9

1'43 -> ~ 46.7 , 2'12.7 , 3'46.8 , 7'35.2 , 13'22.9 , 28'46.2

1'44 -> ~ 47.8 , 2'13.5 , 3'46.6 , 7'31.0 , 13'11.0 , 28'08.4

1'45 -> ~ 48.8 , 2'14.3 , 3'46.3 , 7'26.9 , 12'59.0 , 27'30.7

1'46-> ~ 49.9 , 2'15.4 , 3'46.1 , 7'22.8 , 12'47.0 , 26'53.0

1'47 -> ~ 50.9 , 2'15.9 , 3'45.9 , 7'18.6 , 12'35.0 , 26'15.3

it depends where you put your fulcrum - here it is 800m - tilt your lever up or down around 800m

( albeit i've still no idea where the og champ shoud place in ! )

[26mi235]

I think that Eldrick's analysis does not work that well for someone of EP's age. Eldrick's analysis assumes that the mark at each distance is the best that the runner can attain. However, she is too young to have run the various distances at peak conditioning. Thus, drawing inferences from his formulas is subject to potentially massive errors. For instance, he could have her getting relative better as the distances increase when the opposite is the case, or conversely.