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  • Originally posted by Conor Dary View Post
    Checking the standards aren't very high....the winner in the women's pole vault in the NCAA this year isn't ranked in the top 1000.
    If there's a 1,000 women vaulters better than NCAA champ, there must be plenty of facilities and coaches worldwide teaching women how to vault.

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    • Originally posted by Conor Dary View Post
      Checking the standards aren't very high....the winner in the women's pole vault in the NCAA this year isn't ranked in the top 1000.
      Top 1000 what?

      2021 world outdoor list? 4.40 would be =68th
      All-time world outdoor list? 4.40 would be =236th

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      • Originally posted by gm View Post

        Top 1000 what?

        2021 world outdoor list? 4.40 would be =68th
        All-time world outdoor list? 4.40 would be =236th
        And in the WA rankings, winner Lisa Gunnarsson is No. 36

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        • Originally posted by gh View Post

          And in the WA rankings, winner Lisa Gunnarsson is No. 36
          So she is....

          I overlooked her since I thought she represented France....

          Gunnarsson, a native of Paris, France, was splendid in her performance as she did not miss a bar in four tries en route to her second career national title. After her win was confirmed, Gunnarsson moved the bar to 14’ 9” (4.50 meters) but was unable to clear that bar in three tries. With the win, she becomes the first woman to complete the NCAA indoor/outdoor sweep of pole vault national titles since Kylie Hutson did so in 2010 for Indiana State.

          https://crescentcitysports.com/lisa-...e-vault-title/
          Last edited by Conor Dary; 10-29-2021, 09:09 PM.

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          • Originally posted by gm View Post

            Top 1000 what?

            2021 world outdoor list? 4.40 would be =68th
            All-time world outdoor list? 4.40 would be =236th
            I thought it was odd.

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            • Originally posted by Conor Dary View Post

              I've mentioned before I had 2 nieces who competed in high school and college in the pole vault. And there was nothing extraordinary in that where they grew up, the same high school I went to. If any of my British athletic friends children wanted to do the pole vault I'm sure it would have been met with complete disbelieve.
              Decent pole vault facilities and coaching in the UK do exist, but it is something of what the media would call a postcode (equivalent of US zipcode) lottery. It could exist practically on your doorstep or it might be an hour and a half's drive away. I think it is probably one of the reasons why the UK more consistently produces top-class heptathletes than decathletes.

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              • Originally posted by tandfman View Post
                The only new (post-1983) events that I can think of off the top of my head were the women's TJ, PV, HT, and steeple. And I'm pretty sure they were in the WC' before they were in the OG.
                Women's 10K was first in 1987 WC & 1988 Olympics.

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                • Originally posted by J Rorick View Post

                  Women's 10K was first in 1987 WC & 1988 Olympics.
                  Indeed ...I had good friends run in both races...

                  The first UK 10,000 was in 1986....they pulled lapped runners and in the end had only 4 left.

                  The Commonwealth and Euros in 1986 had women's 10ks for the first time.

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                  • Let's get away from this 'not enough PV facilities' nonsense, as if that's the case, we should scrap the Decathlon...and PV too. But, as gh says, that isn't the actual issue, it's the resistance from the current heptathletes that is the problem.

                    The multievents HAVE to be the same, or there is no equality, period. So the decathlon is either gradually introduced, of which we have discussed ways in which they can do this before, or the heptathlon AND decathlon are both scrapped and replaced by the octathlon.

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                    • Originally posted by Wiederganger View Post
                      Let's get away from this 'not enough PV facilities' nonsense, as if that's the case, we should scrap the Decathlon...and PV too.
                      I'm all for scrapping the decathlon and having both women and men do the heptathlon or octathlon. Make it a one-day competition so it can be more easily included in meets on the pro circuit ... 3 or 4 events in the morning (with or without a stadium audience), the rest in the evening.

                      The PV in the decathlon hurts men too, but it's far less of a problem because boys and men in most countries have more access to the PV (for example, in Jamaica there is no PV for high school girls), and more importantly men have enormously more access to sports in general.

                      Around the world in other sports, there are many more leagues and teams available for male athletes at both the amateur and professional levels, with more money in them than for women, so men who don't have access to the PV have a massive myriad of other options.

                      There's no reason to scrap the standalone PV, because it didn't replace anything and it isn't going to replace anything. If introducing the women's PV meant removing their long jump or high jump, there would have been serious objections to it. The resistance to the women's decathlon exists because it would replace the heptathlon, and the bottom line is that such a replacement will decrease sporting opportunities for girls and women, who are already at an access disadvantage in most sports in most countries. Adding the women's standalone PV increased access, because it didn't replace anything.

                      The multievents HAVE to be the same, or there is no equality, period. So the decathlon is either gradually introduced, of which we have discussed ways in which they can do this before, or the heptathlon AND decathlon are both scrapped and replaced by the octathlon.
                      They can't be the same, unless women are going to use the same hurdle heights, same throwing implements, and same scoring tables as men.
                      Last edited by 18.99s; 11-03-2021, 01:26 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by 18.99s View Post

                        The PV in the decathlon hurts men too, but it's far less of a problem because boys and men in most countries have more access to the PV (for example, in Jamaica there is no PV for high school girls), and more importantly men have enormously more access to sports in general.
                        You're going to have to qualify that statement for me. "boys and men in most countries..". Okay, so there is no PV for highschool girls in Jamaica, but that isn't 'most countries'. Which others?

                        I've no doubt that access to PV the world over is an issue, but that doesn't stop us having a PV for men and women, and it doesn't stop the PV from being in the men's decathlon. It should also not be the red herring that stops us making the multi events equal.

                        Originally posted by 18.99s View Post
                        Around the world in other sports, there are many more leagues and teams available for male athletes at both the amateur and professional levels, with more money in them than for women, so men who don't have access to the PV have a massive myriad of other options.
                        Again, sexual inequality the world over should not be the justification for more sexual inequality. Don't halt the decathlon, introduce more opportunities for women in general.


                        Originally posted by 18.99s View Post
                        They can't be the same, unless women are going to use the same hurdle heights, same throwing implements, and same scoring tables as men.
                        Disingenuous, as you well know. The events are ultimately the same, just with different technical parameters that consider differences in strength and height. Using this in any argument against women competing in the decathlon is petty and ignorant, quite frankly.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by 18.99s View Post
                          The PV in the decathlon hurts men too, but it's far less of a problem because boys and men in most countries have more access to the PV (for example, in Jamaica there is no PV for high school girls), and more importantly men have enormously more access to sports in general.

                          You're going to have to qualify that statement for me. "boys and men in most countries..". Okay, so there is no PV for highschool girls in Jamaica, but that isn't 'most countries'. Which others?

                          I've no doubt that access to PV the world over is an issue, but that doesn't stop us having a PV for men and women, and it doesn't stop the PV from being in the men's decathlon. It should also not be the red herring that stops us making the multi events equal.

                          Originally posted by 18.99s View Post
                          Around the world in other sports, there are many more leagues and teams available for male athletes at both the amateur and professional levels, with more money in them than for women, so men who don't have access to the PV have a massive myriad of other options.

                          Again, sexual inequality the world over should not be the justification for more sexual inequality. Don't halt the decathlon, introduce more opportunities for women in general.


                          Originally posted by 18.99s View Post
                          They can't be the same, unless women are going to use the same hurdle heights, same throwing implements, and same scoring tables as men.

                          Disingenuous, as you well know. The events are ultimately the same, just with different technical parameters that consider differences in strength and height. Using this in any argument against women competing in the decathlon is petty and ignorant, quite frankly.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Wiederganger View Post

                            You're going to have to qualify that statement for me. "boys and men in most countries..". Okay, so there is no PV for highschool girls in Jamaica, but that isn't 'most countries'. Which others?
                            That was just one example where the access to PV is practically zero. I wasn't asserting that most countries are that extreme, but women in most countries outside the US and Europe do have less access to the PV (and almost every other sport) compared to the men.

                            In most other T&F events, lack of access can be worked around by finding a field or road somewhere to train for free, but that's impossible for the pole vault.

                            I've no doubt that access to PV the world over is an issue, but that doesn't stop us having a PV for men and women, ...
                            I repeat, adding the standalone pole vault did not replace any other event, so the standalone PV is irrelevant to this debate which is about replacing one thing with another.

                            Again, sexual inequality the world over should not be the justification for more sexual inequality. Don't halt the decathlon, introduce more opportunities for women in general.
                            Introduce additional opportunities for women and girls, THEN make the switch to the women's decathlon. Replacing the heptathlon without first adding those increased opportunities would increase inequality.
                            Last edited by 18.99s; 11-03-2021, 06:46 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by aaronk View Post
                              I signed it--and donated $11 for it!
                              I strongly support a woman's dec, but want the same events in the same order as the men, but keep the throws poundage and hurdle heights the same as they are now!
                              How can the big multis (Götzis, Ratingen, Talence) run them concurrently? Think of the long throws for instance.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by 18.99s View Post

                                I'm all for scrapping the decathlon and having both women and men do the heptathlon or octathlon. Make it a one-day competition so it can be more easily included in meets on the pro circuit ... 3 or 4 events in the morning (with or without a stadium audience), the rest in the evening.
                                You’re loosing more than you’re gaining, why lose contact with the historical performances that put modern day performances into context. I can’t see how decathlon’s would be exactly the same for both sexes, there isn’t much interest from the current crop of heptathletes to change the current format to something like the men’s decathlon as there are too many event changes AND they’d lose contact with those historical comparisons. Moving from the 800 to 1500 is not appealing. There has to be some sort of carrot offered whereby you’d keep the existing 7 unchanged and add 3, that way the 7 events comparisons could still be made

                                100h
                                SP
                                HJ (You may need to change the order of SP/HJ to avoid having two throws in a row)
                                Discus
                                200

                                400
                                LJ
                                Jav
                                PV
                                800

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