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The Most Complicated Disciplines in Athletics?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by El Toro View Post
    Yego coached himself to mid-70m throws only - a long way from world class. After that he got a scholarship to train with Petterie Piironen in Kuortane as did Ihab Abdelrahman El Sayed from Egypt. It was this coaching expertise that really moved them to world class, not fucking youtube. But the truth is not really an exciting story about the internet for the gullible.
    So how many people have coached themselves to 70m hammer throw? How about 60m discus throw?

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    • #32
      Originally posted by TN1965 View Post
      So how many people have coached themselves to 70m hammer throw? How about 60m discus throw?
      Going back to the other end of the spectrum for a moment, the 100, until I went to the USATF week-long Coaching Education Level2 Program (with a nasty final exam!), I never understood how important the technical aspects were to running a GREAT 100.
      We all know that Houston McTear ran some ungodly 100y time (9.6?) in taped-up sneakers on a dirt road in 8th grade and we thought, it's the genes!
      But when I brought my new-found knowledge to the track, kids who were stuck at one level, actually did run faster. So I scoff no more!
      That said, genes > coaching . . . almost every time.

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      • #33
        Speaking of PV what is the 'consensus' on Huffman's vaulting technique?

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        • #34
          Originally posted by proofs in the pudd'in View Post
          Speaking of PV what is the 'consensus' on Huffman's vaulting technique?
          The Huffman Roll was absolutely fascinating! He admitted that he never intended it; he did it spontaneously to try and 'save' a jump.
          You would NEVER . . . EVER . . . teach that to ANYone else.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Atticus View Post
            The Huffman Roll was absolutely fascinating! He admitted that he never intended it; he did it spontaneously to try and 'save' a jump.
            You would NEVER . . . EVER . . . teach that to ANYone else.
            Has anyone else ever tried to use it? I thought I saw Lavillenie did something a year or two ago that looked like it.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by 18.99s View Post
              He brought himself to the point where world class was within his grasp. In the pole vault you don't even reach basic competence like 13 feet without coaching. Or if you do somehow coach yourself to that level without killing yourself, it's going to take several months to years, not just randomly picking up a pole one day for $hits and giggles like what Bolt did with the javelin.
              Within his grasp? Piironen himself said something along the lines of, "throwers get into the 70's and think they are automatically going to throw 80m. They just don't understand how much more work is required to get to that level."

              For shits and giggles, Bolt threw 56m. That's the IAAF points equivalent of 4.13m PV, 6.24m LJ and 1.82m HJ. Stop making it sound like it means anything at all.

              After a PV competiton I had a LJer and 400Her who had been bullshitting each other about who'd win at PV come over and ask to have a go. Ready for a laugh, I gave them the crappiest pole and set the bar at 3.50, which I assumed they'd never clear and probably knock off with their heads. I was wrong. They cleared easily with a straight pole and again at 3.70 and 3.90 (on second).

              At 4.10 the 400Her missed badly and gave up, then challenged the LJer to "bend the pole if you think you're so good" . LJer takes a longer run, bends it a bit, nearly stalls but clears the bar but very ugly. Up to 4.30 and he gives it a decent bend and manages to rock back past half way, manages to clear the bar sideways but with good height. Me thinking, "goddamn, what could he do if he actually trained?"

              Having proved his superiority over his friend, he comes back and says thanks for that but refused my suggestion to come and train. Nope, he just wanted to LJ, so that's what he did.

              So, for shits and giggles, first and last time ever, an adult male LJer cleared 4.30 with relative ease bending the pole with modest rock back. Not earth shattering but it does falsify your theory through direct observation of facts.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Atticus View Post
                The Huffman Roll was absolutely fascinating! He admitted that he never intended it; he did it spontaneously to try and 'save' a jump.
                You would NEVER . . . EVER . . . teach that to ANYone else.
                I saw that and thought it was pretty incredible. Is it not efficient?Why not teach it? Could it help some vaulters? Or does it just add complexity to an already complex event?

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by proofs in the pudd'in View Post
                  I saw that and thought it was pretty incredible. Is it not efficient?Why not teach it? Could it help some vaulters? Or does it just add complexity to an already complex event?
                  I'm sure someone like Mondo could clear 17' with it, but the timing and body awareness one would need to pull it off is way out there. Huffman admitted he was NOT trying to do the roll, it just happened sometimes.

                  I just thought of another weird technique: about 15 years ago there was a kid from South Carolina St, a 17-footer. As part of his warm-up over high bungees, would do a back somersault. Once the competition started he would do regular technique, but sometimes the back-sumi would appear also. Damnedest thing I ever saw as an official.
                  Last edited by Atticus; 02-19-2021, 02:15 PM.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Atticus View Post
                    I'm sure someone like Mondo could clear 17' with it, but the timing and body awareness one would need to pull it off is way out there. Huffman admitted he was NOT trying to do the roll, it just happened sometimes.

                    I just thought of another weird technique: about 15 years ago there was a kid from South Carolina St, a 17-footer. As part of his warm-up over high bungees, would do a back somersault. Once the competition started he would do regular technique, but sometimes the back-sumi would appear also. Damnedest thing I ever saw as an official.
                    Now that just reminds me of the somersault LJ! That might have had some success if allowed to be mastered. I'm guessing the excuse of too dangerous was just ironic in light of the PV and other sports they allow in international competition and the Olympics.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Atticus View Post
                      I'm sure someone like Mondo could clear 17' with it, but the timing and body awareness one would need to pull it off is way out there. Huffman admitted he was NOT trying to do the roll, it just happened sometimes.

                      I just thought of another weird technique: about 15 years ago there was a kid from South Carolina St, a 17-footer. As part of his warm-up over high bungees, would do a back somersault. Once the competition started he would do regular technique, but sometimes the back-sumi would appear also. Damnedest thing I ever saw as an official.
                      Mondo seems to be able to copy just about any technique; I would not be surprised to see him clear 18'/5.50.

                      I only vaulted a couple of days in my freshman gym class (at 5'0.5"/151?; 85+lb/44-kg) in 1964 with a steel pole. I got to 10'/3m but that was the last time I vaulted.

                      I have officiated the pole vault almost exclusively the last 20 years; the worst injury is a sprained ankle and something similar (pulled muscle) during the run. However, my introduction to officiating the vault was doing the three indoor meets (in preparation for the Outdoor Big Ten meet in Madison), and the week after my third meet was the Big Ten Indoor meet in Minnesota where the Penn State freshman died. That year about four vaulters died, a couple in high school where that went flying out of the back of the short high school pits and hit their heads on concrete. That led to several rule changes, especially in high school, and there have been few fatalities since (Atticus, you have a much better handle on the high school vaulters). The last decade I have officiated some summer series meets and there are lots of kids and high school kids, plus some older folks (highest vaults 5.65 and 4.37); there are very few injuries and aside from pulled muscles almost nothing that would actually keep the vaulter from continuing.

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                      • #41
                        I'm a safety crudgeon around the pit, and exterminate horse-play with extreme prejudice, but it's mostly luck that I've never coached or officated, 25 years each, a bad injury.
                        The worst may have been my own injury as a coach, showing kids how to safely bail a run-through (i.e., getting rid of the pole). In my demonstration I ran hard and then threw the pole up in the pit - the plug caught the pad and came right back at me and ripped open my forearm - 15 stitches. I didn't live that down for a while . . .

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                        • #42
                          Define complicated...

                          Using the Cambridge definition of 'involving a lot of different parts, in a way that is difficult to understand' I hereby submit 'race-walking'.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Vault-emort View Post
                            Define complicated...

                            Using the Cambridge definition of 'involving a lot of different parts, in a way that is difficult to understand' I hereby submit 'race-walking'.
                            I did in the OP: "And I guess we could roughly define "complicated" as that which combines things like speed, power, coordination, technical aspects, etc."

                            Modifying the Cambridge definition for athletics: 'involving a lot of different athletic aspects, in a way that is difficult to integrate into one athletic performance'

                            Not sure Race walking fits but I don't know crap about that event.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by proofs in the pudd'in View Post

                              I did in the OP: "And I guess we could roughly define "complicated" as that which combines things like speed, power, coordination, technical aspects, etc."

                              Modifying the Cambridge definition for athletics: 'involving a lot of different athletic aspects, in a way that is difficult to integrate into one athletic performance'

                              Not sure Race walking fits but I don't know crap about that event.
                              I don't know much about race walking either. However, it must be the most difficult event of all as I understand the rules of race walking are that at all times one foot must be on the ground. And it appears from all commentators that no race walker ever achieves that. Therefore, one has to ask the question "Why aren't they all DQ'd?"

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Tuariki View Post

                                I don't know much about race walking either. However, it must be the most difficult event of all as I understand the rules of race walking are that at all times one foot must be on the ground. .."
                                not true. WA 230, 54.2 (bf mine):

                                <<Race Walking is a progression of steps so taken that the

                                walker makes contact with the ground, so that no visible (to

                                the human eye) loss of contact occurs
                                .>>

                                world-class walkers do an admirable job of fulfilling this requirement.

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