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  • jazzcyclist
    replied
    Originally posted by Wiederganger View Post

    Yep. 11 tests in 28 months (2019 until now) doesn't cut the mustard for me I'm afraid, so I'm hoping the numbers ramp us this year - although testing in summer is pretty meaningless.

    Anyway, I didn't want this to be about her per se, it was about NCAA protocols not matching WADA as I said, hence the 10.75 I'm a bit 'meh' about.
    The NCAA isn't preventing WADA from ramping up its out--of-competition of tests of high school and college athletes. Athing Mu was tested 9 times as a high school junior. and I'll bet she'll be tested at least that many times this year as a college freshman. Also, I suspect that testing was spotty for everyone last year due to COVID-19 so that has to be taken into consideration.
    Last edited by jazzcyclist; 04-14-2021, 02:05 PM.

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  • Wiederganger
    replied
    Originally posted by gm View Post

    You can find USADA testing stats here: https://www.usada.org/news/athlete-test-history/

    Look up Richardson and you'll see she has been tested at least twice this year.
    Yep. 11 tests in 28 months (2019 until now) doesn't cut the mustard for me I'm afraid, so I'm hoping the numbers ramp us this year - although testing in summer is pretty meaningless.

    Anyway, I didn't want this to be about her per se, it was about NCAA protocols not matching WADA as I said, hence the 10.75 I'm a bit 'meh' about.

    Anyway, this relay discussion is much more fun!

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  • KDFINE
    replied
    Originally posted by gh View Post

    if you're talking about eTN, it says "a-c WL, AL," as in all-conditions.
    Thanks for the clarification as to "a-c".

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  • jazzcyclist
    replied
    Originally posted by gm View Post

    You can find USADA testing stats here: https://www.usada.org/news/athlete-test-history/

    Look up Richardson and you'll see she has been tested at least twice this year.
    And as I said earlier, she was tested 5 times as a college freshman. The meet-day tests are just IQ test anyway IMO, so as long as an athlete is getting tested frequently out-of-competition, whether he/she is in high school, college or pro, that's all you can ask for. Also, as former pro cyclist Tyler Hamilton pointed out, using your 3 misses is part of the doping regimen, so athletes need to be tested enough to force them to use up their 3 misses if they're doping.
    Last edited by jazzcyclist; 04-13-2021, 06:09 PM.

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  • gm
    replied
    Originally posted by Wiederganger View Post
    beebee & jazzcyclist I guess Polevaultpower's post answers it all for me. And this is not just my view, its the view of many non-American fans who I interact with on Twitter. gm no idea what Bol has to do with NCAA testing protocols? But I don't want to divert from the main point of this thread, so we'll stop there!

    Muhammad's relay split in Doha was superb. To run the hurdles WR she did, she was obviously in tremendous flat form. And re Tokyo, as I say, the 400mh is right at the start of the programme, so at least give her a run out in the 4x4 heats, and include McLaughlin in the 4x4 final, and top 3 in the Trials if you want. But if she's in similar form as 2019 - a big TBC - then get her in the team!
    You can find USADA testing stats here: https://www.usada.org/news/athlete-test-history/

    Look up Richardson and you'll see she has been tested at least twice this year.

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  • gh
    replied
    Originally posted by KDFINE View Post
    So why is it that the results e-mailed on Sunday lists Kenny Bednarek's 19.65 as WL and AL even though it was wind aided?
    if you're talking about eTN, it says "a-c WL, AL," as in all-conditions.

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  • KDFINE
    replied
    So why is it that the results e-mailed on Sunday lists Kenny Bednarek's 19.65 as WL and AL even though it was wind aided?

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  • jazzcyclist
    replied
    Originally posted by Wiederganger View Post
    The plus point in having Muhammad and McLaughlin in the 4x4 is they will be more rested than the 400m flat runners, as the hurdles are right at the start of the programme. Runners 4 & 5 in the US Trials 400m may find themselves in the mixed relay, which isn't advisable for the 400mhurdlers as there is an overlap.
    I guess scheduling does need to be taken into consideration but I don't put Muhammad in the same class with McLaughlin and our best quartermilers when it comes to flat speed. She's never sniffed sub-50 even in 2019 when she was in 400H WR shape, and she only managed 49.5 in the relay, which is pretty average by American standards unless it's the scratch leg. If Muhammad were to run the 400 at the Trials I doubt she would make the final and might not even make it out of the heats.

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  • jazzcyclist
    replied
    Demi Payne did cross my mind as I was typing but I think she's the exception and not the rule. Also, if IIRC, Brauman was no longer associated with Arkansas when Gay was busted. He had gone to prison, gotten out and set up independent pro track club. Former LSU sprinter Kelly Ann Baptiste is another athlete who flunked a drug test under Brauman's tutelage.

    I don't know what pro track coaches make but I suspect that it's not in the same ballpark compared to what the top college coaches make when you look at their total compensation packages, nor is their income as stable.

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  • polevaultpower
    replied
    Originally posted by jazzcyclist View Post

    I agree 100%. College track and field coaches don't fool around with that sort of stuff, so college athletes who want to dope would have to do it on their own. Of the athletes who have come through the American collegiate system who have ever been popped for PED's, I would estimate that 99% of them got busted after they left their college coaches. As a matter of fact, I can't think of any pro athlete getting busted who was still being by his/her college coach.
    Of course they got busted AFTER college, very few college athletes are tested out of competition by USADA before they graduate. If they fail an NCAA or school test, it does not get reported to WADA/USADA and we rarely hear about it.

    This is easy to forget, both because she was done with eligibility indoors and was competing unattached when she failed her test, and because of the two year delay before the failed test was made public, but Demi Payne was still on her college team and training with her college coaches when she failed a USADA test at USATF Indoors. She competed in several outdoor meets for SFA after failing the test and then competed for SFA at the Olympic Trials because an arbitrator ordered USADA to let her compete.

    Actual NCAA testing is very very hit and miss. I've been there on day 1 of NCAAs when there was no drug testing despite there being event finals. I watched the event winner go through the mixed zone, talk to their coach, then exit the area and go to their parents. No drug testers anywhere. But obviously there are plenty of times the NCAA does drug test at their champs, it's just hit and miss.

    Edit: Also Tyson Gay was being coached by his college coach, Lance Bauman, when he failed his drug test. That is easy to forget because all of the drama surrounding John Drummond, but Tyson had not been coached by JD for nearly a year before failing his test.
    Last edited by polevaultpower; 04-12-2021, 05:47 PM.

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  • cigar95
    replied
    Originally posted by Atticus View Post
    Quick comment on the 2mps wind. I just double the mps to get mph (approx), but few people have a sense of wind speed. When I bike in the morning it is almost always 5+mph wind, but it does die in the afternoon. 5mph is just a noticeable breeze, so I'm always amazed that the wind is usually under 2mps at meets.

    All that said, at meets, people only care if it's legal or not, so the mps works best.
    I'll add that the most important part about the wind reading isn't the absolute magnitude, but the ability to compare it to other races. So if we *always* cite the value in m/sec, we should be fine. We don't need a conversion to compare it to last week's race in Oklahoma city.
    For that matter, if we quote wind readings in ginflarks, and we *always* cite it in ginflarks, that ought to be okay, even if no one knows what a ginflark is (I know I don't.). So if the limit for legal wind is 2.7 ginflarks, what is of most interest is if it's less than 2.7, more than 2.7, *way* more than 2.7, or possibly negative.

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  • jazzcyclist
    replied
    Originally posted by beebee View Post

    What a shitty baseless unfounded insinuation without any merit.
    I agree 100%. College track and field coaches don't fool around with that sort of stuff, so college athletes who want to dope would have to do it on their own. Of the athletes who have come through the American collegiate system who have ever been popped for PED's, I would estimate that 99% of them got busted after they left their college coaches. As a matter of fact, I can't think of any pro athlete getting busted who was still being by his/her college coach.

    Leave a comment:


  • ATK
    replied
    Originally posted by Wiederganger View Post
    The plus point in having Muhammad and McLaughlin in the 4x4 is they will be more rested than the 400m flat runners, as the hurdles are right at the start of the programme. Runners 4 & 5 in the US Trials 400m may find themselves in the mixed relay, which isn't advisable for the 400mhurdlers as there is an overlap.
    That mixed 4x4 gives the US so much room to play around with in terms of who runs. I'm not sure if Tokyo will be like Doha, but the US ran 4 different athletes in the heats and finals of the mixed relay and 4x4. Jasmine Blocker finished 8th the 400m at USAs and got a gold medal in Doha. Will London didnt even make the final at USAs and won 2 gold medals in Doha.

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  • beebee
    replied
    Originally posted by Wiederganger View Post

    She may well have been, but WADA testing protocols were not employed at the NCAAs in 2019. If you can show me evidence that she was drug tested when the ran that in 2019 at that event, and it followed WADA protocols, then I'll remove that big pinch of salt. Unfortunately I am always dubious re fast times that come out of the NCAAs until I see that athlete in an internationally sanctioned race with the standard drug testing protocols. It's absolutely nothing personal against her in particular I'll add.
    What a shitty baseless unfounded insinuation without any merit.

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  • gm
    replied
    Originally posted by Wiederganger View Post

    She may well have been, but WADA testing protocols were not employed at the NCAAs in 2019. If you can show me evidence that she was drug tested when the ran that in 2019 at that event, and it followed WADA protocols, then I'll remove that big pinch of salt. Unfortunately I am always dubious re fast times that come out of the NCAAs until I see that athlete in an internationally sanctioned race with the standard drug testing protocols. It's absolutely nothing personal against her in particular I'll add.
    No worries. I feel the same way (competition-wise) about Femke Bol. She has never raced in the U.S. as far as I know.

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