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  • Atticus
    replied
    Originally posted by miketandf View Post
    the good old days, those guys did not know about DNFs and training session decas...
    Toomey was a very special kind of competitor, the kind that thrive on comps and more comps. There are still many of them left, but rarely in the multis, where the coach will nix that kind of persistence.
    PVers and SPs are often of that ilk also; they just wanna compete!

    Leave a comment:


  • miketandf
    replied
    Originally posted by gh View Post
    then there's old-school, as personified by Bill Toomey in his WR year of '69, completing 9 high-level decathlons:

    June 07-08
    June 27-28
    July 18-19
    August 05-06
    August 28-29
    September 13-14
    October 03-04
    October 19-20
    December 10-11 (the WR)
    the good old days, those guys did not know about DNFs and training session decas...

    Leave a comment:


  • miketandf
    replied
    Originally posted by El Toro View Post

    In addition to olorin's answer above, we had a thread two years ago, talking about recovery time between decathlons as well as numbers per year. However, the data is probably insufficient to fully differentiate between collegiate and non-collegiate athletes. You may still find it useful.

    https://forum.trackandfieldnews.com/...om-a-decathlon
    Thanks El Toro... Looking again at olorin's comments and at the previous thread (and all of the good posts there)... three comments caught my attention: 1) El Toro's summary of Ashton Eaton's career, 2) Deca's post that "Eaton was at a different level though" and 3) Trickstat's post on Ashley Bryant's 6 decas (finished 3) in 2014. While the average may be 2-3 per year for higher quality guys, it certainly depends on some obvious factors:

    1) NCAA D1 guys:
    - If you are a top-24 college decathlete (7500+), as we see year after year, that's most likely 3 decas per year (a season opener, Conference Champs and NCAAs). Very good American college guys will extend their season and go to USATFs for a total of 4 (e.g. Eaton 2008) and the very elite college guy may make it to Olys/WCs and do 5 (e.g. Eaton 2009). Elite foreign NCAAers will have one less per year (e.g. Uibo 2016, Victor 2017), since they don't have to worry about nationals. There are exceptions of course... and an interesting/applicable one is ZZ while at Wisconsin in 2016... he skipped the Big 10 deca and 'only' did 4 that year (GA Bulldog 8047, NCAAs 8300, USATF 8413, Olys 8392).
    2) The 'Q':
    - I think Trickstat's 2014 A. Bryant is a good example of the 8000+ guy trying to get to a big meet (and maybe over-doing it to get there)... in his case, an April DNF, a 'not enough' May 7802, a May DNF, a June 1 Q that he was chasing, followed by two relatively important decas for him. 6 decas started, but only 3 completed, and was sub-par/DNF on his last one w/ a short recovery period (and after a long season).
    - On the other hand, Deca's comment that "Eaton was at a different level though" places a little bias in the results, since he generally did not have to worry about 'Qs' after college. While Eaton is a statistical anomoly, he does exemplify the explanatory power of having a 'Q' with respect to number of competitions per year, as he competed in noticeably fewer decas after becoming elite. His best deca, 2015's 9045, was his only real deca that year after zero decas in 2014 (when he played with the 400H).
    - In today's world with an unfair World Ranking system, the difficult 8350 'Q' seems more important than ever.

    Half-joking, half-serious... 2-3 per year sounds good with the following qualifiers: a) add 1 if you are an American or college kid, b) subtract 1 if you have the 'Q' and c) exclude training-session decas/DNFs from calculations, which is becoming more popular these days.


    To me, the potential American Oly deca team is just so dynamic... anyone without the Q (only Scantling, H. Williams have it) would need a very good finish at the OTs, and get the Q in the process, or... get a World Ranking that would qualify them. But 15 of 24 slots are already filled, and that's with many of the Euro guys not even competing yet at the GL events like Gotzis. To add to the American selection dynamics, Simmons is currently sitting in the 17th slot... while ZZ, DW, etc. are on the outside looking in. And... the OTs are only a 'B' level meet w/ respect to World Ranking place points, so there's not a ton of place points to boost one's score (e.g. Lana's recent 4th place finisher at 7758 earns more place points than the US Oly Trial winner, 65 to 60 place points). So, it's a very interesting road to Tokyo for everyone other than GS and HW...

    Leave a comment:


  • gh
    replied
    and while he was at it, Toomey set pentathlon WR on August 16

    Leave a comment:


  • Atticus
    replied
    Originally posted by gh View Post
    then there's old-school, as personified by Bill Toomey in his WR year of '69, completing 9 high-level decathlons:
    June 07-08
    June 27-28
    July 18-19
    August 05-06
    August 28-29
    September 13-14
    October 03-04
    October 19-20
    December 10-11 (the WR)
    Most of those were arranged in the pursuit of that WR. He knew he had it in him, so he just kept doing them till he got it!
    A bonanza for Dec fans like myself.

    Leave a comment:


  • gh
    replied
    then there's old-school, as personified by Bill Toomey in his WR year of '69, completing 9 high-level decathlons:

    June 07-08
    June 27-28
    July 18-19
    August 05-06
    August 28-29
    September 13-14
    October 03-04
    October 19-20
    December 10-11 (the WR)

    Leave a comment:


  • El Toro
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave View Post
    How many decathlon’s does a university or professional athlete typically do a year? For outdoors, it seems like no more than three or four for both groups. For a college athlete, some early relays meet, then conference, then NCAA, followed by US nationals if they are good enough. I’m less sure about pros. Is this number a function of opportunities or is it really that hard on the competitors?
    In addition to olorin's answer above, we had a thread two years ago, talking about recovery time between decathlons as well as numbers per year. However, the data is probably insufficient to fully differentiate between collegiate and non-collegiate athletes. You may still find it useful.

    https://forum.trackandfieldnews.com/...om-a-decathlon

    Leave a comment:


  • miketandf
    replied
    Originally posted by olorin View Post

    After going through these numbers, I have to reassess ZZ (now 27) strategy and predict that his next decathlon will be at the trials (and of course now he will show up next week J). I can’t see him competes four times in the space of four months.
    Good stuff olorin... I am intrigued with the ZZ situation (whether he competes before the OTs or not, since he does not have the auto-Q), and you have almost convinced me that we may not see him until the Trials, almost... Lots of dynamics here, that's for sure.

    Leave a comment:


  • olorin
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave View Post
    How many decathlon’s does a university or professional athlete typically do a year? For outdoors, it seems like no more than three or four for both groups. For a college athlete, some early relays meet, then conference, then NCAA, followed by US nationals if they are good enough. I’m less sure about pros. Is this number a function of opportunities or is it really that hard on the competitors?
    Few years ago, the Eatons said in an interview that in order to fully recover from a decathlon you need three months and two months for a Heptathlon.
    So, based on this I would say 2-3 is the answer.

    I also checked in my data. Unfortunately, I have only performances above 8,000 (and I am less sure about those in between 8000-8200), so the answer will be relevant only for top decathletes that are (very) likely to score above 8,000 every time they compete.
    Among these decathletes it seems that 2-3 is indeed the answer. With some decathletes (anecdotally more Europeans) seems to compete 3-4 times in the early stage of their career. Generally, the number of decathlons per year tends to decrease as the decathlete get older (and in the American case finishes college).

    Here are some examples of the number of decathlons per year for the more famous names:
    Eaton, competed five times in 2009 and had only five decathlons in the 2013-16.
    Sebrle (born 74) competed 6 times in 1997 and 3-4 time per year in the reminder of his career.
    Dvorak (born 72) competed usually 3 - 4 times per year throughout his career.
    O’Brien competed 2-3 times per year, whereas Nool competed four times quite often.
    Kevin Mayer competes very sparely throughout his career, typically twice a year.


    After going through these numbers, I have to reassess ZZ (now 27) strategy and predict that his next decathlon will be at the trials (and of course now he will show up next week J). I can’t see him competes four times in the space of four months.

    Leave a comment:


  • Atticus
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave View Post
    How many decathlon’s does a university or professional athlete typically do a year? For outdoors, it seems like no more than three or four for both groups. For a college athlete, some early relays meet, then conference, then NCAA, followed by US nationals if they are good enough. I’m less sure about pros. Is this number a function of opportunities or is it really that hard on the competitors?
    Three seems to be a good number. One big reason for so 'few' is that it takes a LOT of training time to get all ten events the attention they need. Competing in a full Multi decreases the training before and after the comp.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave
    replied
    How many decathlon’s does a university or professional athlete typically do a year? For outdoors, it seems like no more than three or four for both groups. For a college athlete, some early relays meet, then conference, then NCAA, followed by US nationals if they are good enough. I’m less sure about pros. Is this number a function of opportunities or is it really that hard on the competitors?

    Leave a comment:


  • ZazaShoya
    replied
    Some Götzis entries are out (May 29-30) :
    Dec : Kaul, Warner, Uibo, Ehammer
    Hep : Bougard, Williams, Schäfer, Ikauniece, Krizsán, Kälin, Ruckstuhl

    Leave a comment:


  • olorin
    replied
    Taliyah Brooks with an impressive 23.45 (PB) in the 200 and 12.73 in the 100h is probably the slight favorite for the illusive third place in the trials.
    Her problem, with no high scoring heptathlon, even if she will finish one point below the auto-Q (6,419) behind Williams and Bougard, she is still unlikely to qualify.

    Leave a comment:


  • miketandf
    replied
    Garland w/ 2 more PRs today in Georgia... His first mark over the 42in hurdles in 13.94, so an automatic PR there... and while I was hoping for a bit more in the JT, a PR of 55.70 / 182-9. Assuming a modest 50.0 in the 400 and 5:00 1500 (no marks for a couple years), his SBs alone would total over 8250... so he's making nice progress.

    Leave a comment:


  • olorin
    replied
    Originally posted by miketandf View Post

    Which brings to mind some Formchart questions (this multi stuff would likely get lost in the Formchart thread, so I posted it here)...

    1) Erm was ranked #1 in the initital formchart, and is still ranked #1 in Formchart #2, yet we have not seen anything from him since February, and Tilga is a proven entity. Even Tilga's fresh PR of 8484 is better than Erm's 8445 from 2019. Do the formcharters know something that we dont?...

    2) Where's Leo Neugebauer (Texas)? He just competed for Texas with an easy 7621 two weeks ago (in not-so-good conditions) and certainly is loaded with more potential. He was not on Formchart #1 either. This has to be an oversight by the formcharters, right?...
    Looking at both men and women rankings, I think that the rankers put too much emphasis on the current collegiate list and not enough of history and performance in individual events.
    I agree that Neugebauer should be in as he is in the same category as Ballengee and Owens (~8100 potential).
    In the women side - Kylee Hinton should be in the list. I would personally put Sterling Lester (Florida - ex Georgia) in the top-10, but this may have to do with my "old-timer" bias, the same bias that will lead me to put TJ Lawson in the men and hopping that "old man" Wasik will also make it.

    Leave a comment:

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