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West Coast Classic (and best 1-day SP/DT double)

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  • West Coast Classic (and best 1-day SP/DT double)

    I see in the results links that there's a 'split-meet' this weekend. Sprints in Arizona and Distance in Oregon. Looking at the Oregon start lists, the meet includes field events, and Turner Washington, the reincarnation of Rany Matson, is throwing both the shot and disc, opening up the possibility of a great 1-day double

    John Godina, in a meet in Palo Alto on June 9, 2001, had (I think) the best double ever with a 21.95m (72-0.25) shot and 67.06 (220-0) discus. Is that indeed the best? And what is the best collegiate double? Matson had a 70-5.5 / 213-9 day in 1967.

    Here's hoping TW has a memorable day. Looking at his TFRRS page, it doesn't look like he's ever thrown both in college on the same day.
    https://www.tfrrs.org/athletes/69014...ner_Washington

  • #2
    Intriguing...a good old-fashioned double, the SP and DT...

    Using Peter Larsson's alltime-athletics data, which has: SP > 21.00 / 68-10.75 and DT > 67.00 / 219-10... I did find at least one-day double that was 'better', at least according to the sum of WA 'results score' points:
    John Godina: May 19, 1998, Salinas, CA... SP 21.58 / 70-9.75 and DT 69.91 / 229-4, or 1215+1243 = 2458 points
    vs. the above-mentioned...
    John Godina: June 9, 2001, Palo Alto CA...SP 21.95 / 72-0.25 and DT 67.06 / 220-0, or 1237+1190 = 2427 points

    Godina actually had a total of 6 one-day doubles where he threw at least 21m AND 67m on the same day!

    ...and using WA stats...

    John Godina's PRs: SP 22.20 / 72-10 (1252) and DT 69.91 / 229-4 (1243) = 2495 points

    Turner Washington's PRs: iSP 21.85 / 71-8.25 (1231) and DT 64.57 / 211-10 (1144) =2375 points

    Your Randy Matson one-day college double as mentioned above (April 8,1967):
    SP 70-5.5 (1206) and DT (1155), both listed at WA toplists site = combo one-day double = 2361 points... so Turner is right there... and
    Randy Matson's PRs according to WA: SP 21.78 / 71-5.5 (1227) and DT 65.16 / 213-9 (1155), or combo PR = 2382 points... both RM performances from April 1967, College Station, TX...

    Going off topic a bit... I'm sure there are many more that did the SP-DT double seriously, but two Americans, at any level, at any time, came to my mind...
    Mac Wilkens' PRs: iSP 21.06 / 69-1.25 (1184) and DT 70.98 / 232-10 (1263), or combo PR = 2447 points
    Ryan Crouser's PRs: SP 22.91 / 75-2 (1295) and DT 63.90 / 209-8 (1132), or combo PR = 2427 points

    My learning experience here... I never realized Godina was THAT impressive as a SP-DT combo guy.

    Comment


    • #3
      As a historical footnote:

      Ben Plucknett (1954-2002) competed at Modesto on 16 May 1981, throwing 20.59 - 1,156 and 71.20 WR 1,267 for a single day total of 2,423 points.

      Later that year he threw 72.34 WR - 1,288 giving a lifetime total of 2,444 points. However, a positive drug test subsequently canned all those performances and TFN doesn't recognise any Plucknett performances at all from 1981 in accordance with their rules.

      Outside of his suspension, Plucknett subsequently threw 71.32 1,269 in 1983 and had a pre-ban best of 20.40 - 1,145 for a total of 2,414.

      Obviously, Godina is much more balanced across both events than Plucknett.

      A deeper list using a diferent methodology was compiled by Tony Dziepak here http://throwerspage.125mb.com/stats/combo.php along with many other throws combos. However, his list doesn't seem to have been updated since 2018.

      Comment


      • #4
        Dziepak's page doesn't link to the actual methodology, ending in a 404 error. I resurrected the detail from archives to help interpretion of his tables:

        For each event, the thrower's preformance is divided by the world record. Then for each combination list, the throwers are ranked according to lowest scoring event.

        FAQ: Why rank according to the lowest event instead of the average of all events?

        Answer: there are two main reasons.
        1) The lowest scoring event ranking provides the most differentiation across combo lists and from the single-event performance lists, and
        2) It is more practical. For example, John Godina is the #1 shot-disc doubler, and deserves to be recognized as such. If he happens to have thrown the javelin only 14 meters, he would make the shot-disc-javelin list in an average-scoring scenario.

        I submit that
        1) we should not be wasting time recognizing Godina as a top shot-disc-javelin tripler, and
        2) performance lists are not deep enough to find all of these low performances anyway, so I could not generate a comprehensive list. Godina gets his due recognition in the S-D list, and others that are truly good in all three events get listed in the S-D-J list.

        There are two sets of lists.

        The current-WR list uses the present world records for everyone regardless of the year of the performance. This list favors more recent performances.

        For the indexed-WR list, the distance thrown is divided by the world record or world best as of January 1 in the year of the performance. This criteria tends to favor early 20th century performers, when there was less depth and fewer individual-event specialists.

        The distances listed for the athlete are always seasonal bests, but not necessarily personal records. If the world record was lower in a previous year, it is possible that the athlete will score higher using a previous seasonal best which is lower that his/her personal record.

        For the indexed-WR list, the following arbitrary standards were created when world bests were missing: The 1999 new women's javelin standard is based on 92% of the world record as of 1998 with the older javelin; The 1991 thicker tail javelin standard is based on 88% of the world record as of 1990 with the old javelin. Pre-1970 men's and pre-1986 women's indoor shot standards are based on 98.5% of the corresponding years' outdoor records. Pre-1933 men's and pre-1990 women's weight standards are based on 26.5% and 30% of the corresponding years' hammer records, respectively.

        For the current-WR list, the following adjustments are made for old javelins: Old men's javelin throws (up to 1985) are multiplied by .90, and 1991 rough-tail javelin throws are multiplied by .95. Women's old javelin marks before 1999 is multiplied by .95, and marks before 1991 are multiplied by .90. Note all 1999 women's javelin marks before April 1 are considered old, and some (NCAA competition) marks April-June 1999 are old (as indicated in the comment field).

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by miketandf View Post
          Ryan Crouser's PRs: SP 22.91 / 75-2 (1295) and DT 63.90 / 209-8 (1132), or combo PR = 2427 points
          I'm convinced that, if he really wanted to, he could win both next year in Eugene. Perhaps if he gets the SP WR this year, he'll try (new horizons and all).

          Comment


          • #6
            Leg 1 complete.

            TW won the DT at 217-4 (66.26)

            Comment


            • #7
              Oly Auto Q, right?

              And easily passes Randy Matson as best SP/DT College combo thower... Assuming 66.26 / 217-4, TW now tied for 10th on all-time list of SP/DT combo throwers using absolute SP (in/out), with 2407 points

              J. Godina 2495 points
              J. Brenner 2454
              M. Wilkins 2447
              V. Alekna 2436
              W. Schmidt 2432
              A. Bloom 2428
              R. Crouser 2427
              R. Smith 2421
              B. Plunknett 2414 (excludes marks not recognized by T&FN)
              F. Dacres 2407
              T. Washington 2407
              Last edited by miketandf; 04-17-2021, 11:22 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Atticus View Post
                Leg 1 complete
                TW won the DT at 217-4 (66.26)
                20.80 (68-3) in the SP.

                His day will come for a 70/220!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Atticus View Post
                  20.80 (68-3) in the SP.

                  His day will come for a 70/220!
                  A metric 22m/70m would be quite something!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    John Godina said at a throws camp in '96 that he wanted to be the first to do 70ft SP and 70m DT (not necessarily same day). So close.

                    I figured Bloom would be up there. I competed against him in '03 I believe.

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