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Tokyo women's 4x4 [split]

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  • Note I was chatting to coach Meuwly and he has acknowledged that the NED best chance of a medal in the 4x4 is currently with the men's and mixed teams, rather than the women's. He will be making decisions in Tokyo, but it could be he does run Bol in the mixed 4x4 final - not heat - which is the night before the 400mh 1st rd, as well as Klaver. But he doesn't want to impede Bol's chances in the 400mh.

    In the women 4x4, his current thinking is Klaver on leg 1 and Bol on anchor, with Lisanne De Witte and AN Other tbc on legs 2/3. Note after the ETC in Romania, it finally looks like Eva Hoovenkamp is off the team (thank God...she ran 55.4 on the opening leg there 😮🤐) and while new name Van de Wiel ran an acceptable 52.8 leg, and Laura de Witte ran 52.9, either of which he could use as their 'fourth woman', he is holding out for young Eveline Saarlberg to show some form. She has been recovering from a foot injury and he believes she will be better soon and run a 52+ on the individual, in which case she will be in. Then Marit Dopheide, their fourth woman from the European indoors, also opens her outdoor season this weekend at the NCs, so she is a small possibility.

    He is concerned about the women 4x1 team though. At the end of 2020 his aim for sub 42 for them, but at the moment only Sedney is near her best form. Schippers, van Hunenstijn and Samuel are all below form and Visser has been injured (hence Klaver being drafted in twice).

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Wiederganger View Post
      Is the leg she runs on significant? She has always tended to run 2nd leg, and that is where she has run her fastest times (even when way below form in 2019, she still ran 49.8 on leg 2 in the heats).
      Yes, 2nd leg is her forte, but the only exception is her actual fastest relay split:

      2015 - 47.72 - 3rd leg

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ATK View Post
        Yes, 2nd leg is her forte, but the only exception is her actual fastest relay split:

        2015 - 47.72 - 3rd leg
        I'll ask something stupid?
        Does she run fast 2nd legs because, for the most part, she has competition at that point in the race?
        Followup.
        Does the coach place her there to give the team needed breathing room?

        Comment


        • This is true, and 2015 was also her 400 PB year, so in theory that's when she was at her fastest anyway. I also think legs 2 and 3 are similar, but your point is still valid.

          I think stick her on leg 2 if in form, or else the glory leg to finish her career would be an appropriate send-off.

          Comment


          • booond
            Senior Member
            booond historically leg 2 is where you put your fastest athlete over 200m, because of the scrap to get to the break. That's always how I see it.

            Depending on your countries depth:
            Leg 1: solid, reliable runner
            Leg 2: fastest over 200m/fast opener
            Leg 3: Most inexperienced/worse runner
            Leg 4: Fastest runner


            Although Felix fits into 'fastest runner' category, as she is clearly the fastest over 200m, or me its always made sense to stick her on leg 2 and get to the break first.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by booond View Post

              I'll ask something stupid?
              Does she run fast 2nd legs because, for the most part, she has competition at that point in the race?
              Followup.
              Does the coach place her there to give the team needed breathing room?
              Just a guess, but I think its a combination of the 2, they are likely to have competition early on, so they put her on 2nd to ensure 3rd and 4th have breathing room.

              2007: Was behind at start of 2nd leg
              2008: Same as 2009
              2009: US was so far in front, Race was basically over when she got the baton
              2011: Same as 2009
              2012: Same as 2009 and 2011
              2015: This team was doomed from the start. Felix runs 3rd
              2016: Jamaica was in a similar spot behind the US as 2015 entering anchor, but Felix ran anchor
              2017: Same as 2009 and 2011

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Wiederganger View Post
                booond
                Senior Member
                booond historically leg 2 is where you put your fastest athlete over 200m, because of the scrap to get to the break. That's always how I see it.

                Depending on your countries depth:
                Leg 1: solid, reliable runner
                Leg 2: fastest over 200m/fast opener
                Leg 3: Most inexperienced/worse runner
                Leg 4: Fastest runner


                Although Felix fits into 'fastest runner' category, as she is clearly the fastest over 200m, or me its always made sense to stick her on leg 2 and get to the break first.
                I'm rolling my eyes. I understand the theory. I'm asking questions that are almost rhetorical in nature.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ATK View Post
                  Just a guess, but I think its a combination of the 2, they are likely to have competition early on, so they put her on 2nd to ensure 3rd and 4th have breathing room.

                  2007: Was behind at start of 2nd leg
                  2008: Same as 2009
                  2009: US was so far in front, Race was basically over when she got the baton
                  2011: Same as 2009
                  2012: Same as 2009 and 2011
                  2015: This team was doomed from the start. Felix runs 3rd
                  2016: Jamaica was in a similar spot behind the US as 2015 entering anchor, but Felix ran anchor
                  2017: Same as 2009 and 2011
                  Yes, you put her there because she has reliable speed and, for a team that should win comfortably, you grab that comfort immediately. McLaughlin ran second in 2019 for a similar reason and should likely run second in 2021.

                  ***Unless Felix shows a solid number in the 200*** I suspect she'll run anchor for TV's sake.
                  booond
                  Senior Member
                  Last edited by booond; 06-23-2021, 04:33 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Wiederganger View Post
                    Note I was chatting to coach Meuwly and he has acknowledged that the NED best chance of a medal in the 4x4 is currently with the men's and mixed teams, rather than the women's. He will be making decisions in Tokyo, but it could be he does run Bol in the mixed 4x4 final - not heat - which is the night before the 400mh 1st rd, as well as Klaver. But he doesn't want to impede Bol's chances in the 400mh.

                    In the women 4x4, his current thinking is Klaver on leg 1 and Bol on anchor, with Lisanne De Witte and AN Other tbc on legs 2/3. Note after the ETC in Romania, it finally looks like Eva Hoovenkamp is off the team (thank God...she ran 55.4 on the opening leg there 😮🤐) and while new name Van de Wiel ran an acceptable 52.8 leg, and Laura de Witte ran 52.9, either of which he could use as their 'fourth woman', he is holding out for young Eveline Saarlberg to show some form. She has been recovering from a foot injury and he believes she will be better soon and run a 52+ on the individual, in which case she will be in. Then Marit Dopheide, their fourth woman from the European indoors, also opens her outdoor season this weekend at the NCs, so she is a small possibility.

                    He is concerned about the women 4x1 team though. At the end of 2020 his aim for sub 42 for them, but at the moment only Sedney is near her best form. Schippers, van Hunenstijn and Samuel are all below form and Visser has been injured (hence Klaver being drafted in twice).

                    Very interesting take by coach Meuwly. I personally think the mixed relay is the NED best chance for any relay medal. I understand the coach is happy about the men's 4x400 relay running the fastest they have run in several years. But I think 3:02.49 is a long way from running 2:59, and winning an Olympic medal. If they stick Dobber on the relay it might get them down to 3:01. But I still think they can win a silver or bronze medal with their best mixed relay team.

                    Comment


                    • The mixed relay is the best chance for almost all countries to medal (even gold) over the mens/womens 4x400 where one spot is secured by the USA.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by booond View Post

                        You're reading this as sexist? What a ridiculous take.
                        You're projecting. I didn't accuse you of anything, I only made an observation that you don't think the women's team is capable of doing what the men's team does routinely - run fast when they're all alone out front. To be fair, you aren't the only one who seems to believe this.
                        jazzcyclist
                        Senior Member
                        Last edited by jazzcyclist; 06-23-2021, 05:30 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by jazzcyclist View Post

                          You're projecting. I didn't accuse you of anything, I only made an observation that you don't think the women's team is capable of doing what the men's team does routinely - run fast when they're all alone out front. To be fair, you aren't the only one who seems to believe this.
                          I didn't mention the women's team specifically as not running hard unless pushed... all teams are like that. It is human nature. I'm not picking out women, specifically, I'm picking out humans.

                          As I said, ridiculous take.

                          BTW, how much faster did that WR men's team run past their 400 meter PBs versus the women's 2019 WC 4x400 past their PBs?

                          I'll wait while you gather the stats.
                          booond
                          Senior Member
                          Last edited by booond; 06-23-2021, 05:57 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by booond View Post

                            I didn't mention the women's team specifically as not running hard unless pushed... all teams are like that. It is human nature. I'm not picking out women, specifically, I'm picking out humans.

                            As I said, ridiculous take.

                            BTW, how much faster did that WR men's team run past their 400 meter PBs versus the women's 2019 WC 4x400 past their PBs?

                            I'll wait while you gather the stats.
                            What's ridiculous is saying that humans are incapable of doing this despite ample evidence to the contrary.

                            EDIT: The 7 fastest American men relay teams won by an average margin of more than 4 seconds. I differ with the theory that 4x400 records can only be broken when there's fierce competition. Of course fierce competition is one circumstance that pushes 4 runners to rise to occasion, but I also think that if the runners know or believe in real time that they are chasing history, they can dig as deep as they can against fierce competition, especially an anchor leg who knows that the his/her teammates have done the work to break a record and now it's all up to him/her to close the deal. That was the case for those great American men relay teams. For elite runners, especially American runners who've gone the collegiate system and have a history of running relays for conference championships, a big motivator is not letting down your teammates.
                            jazzcyclist
                            Senior Member
                            Last edited by jazzcyclist; 06-24-2021, 02:17 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by jazzcyclist View Post

                              What's ridiculous is saying that humans are incapable of doing this despite ample evidence to the contrary.

                              EDIT: The 7 fastest American men relay teams won by an average margin of more than 4 seconds. I differ with the theory that 4x400 records can only be broken when there's fierce competition. Of course fierce competition is one circumstance that pushes 4 runners to rise to occasion, but I also think that if the runners know or believe in real time that they are chasing history, they can dig as deep as they can against fierce competition, especially an anchor leg who knows that the his/her teammates have done the work to break a record and now it's all up to him/her to close the deal. That was the case for those great American men relay teams. For elite runners, especially American runners who've gone the collegiate system and have a history of running relays for conference championships, a big motivator is not letting down your teammates.
                              So, this is all made up in your head without any facts... because you can't really have facts in a case like this. Better to use the word fierce a couple times and beat your chest about great American relay teams.

                              In 1993 the Men's 4x400 team ran to their combined 400 PBs. Nothing more than that. No time-trialing heroics, no fierceness (that word makes me laugh) they just ran what they were capable of. At that moment in time they were a great team (possibly the greatest set of 400 meter runners in history) - Johnson, Reynolds, and Watts all ended up with PBs below 43.5 - and ran to their greatness but not beyond their greatness.

                              The WC 2019 Women's team ran one second faster than their combined PBs. They were a good/solid team with the exception of possibly one runner who may be great. They did better than the 1993 Men's WR team for whatever reason that we can't quantify. Were they fierce, too?

                              I didn't say humans were incapable of time-trialing just like I didn't say women's teams were in capable of time-trialing. I said that having a competitor forces a team or individual to attempt to go beyond their means.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by booond View Post

                                having a competitor forces a team or individual to attempt to go beyond their means.
                                Pacing lights please.

                                Comment

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