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High Jump Injustice at the Olympic Trials?

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  • ATK
    replied
    Originally posted by Tuariki View Post

    But you you still haven't explained what those differences are. How were these 3 athletes treated/rated/ranked differently?
    booond and Atticus explained it out. The point is they SHOULD be treated/rated/ranked differently, but WA currently isnt accounting for the differences in events, competition etc. When Ryzhykova is finishing with a top 25 time in history in a field that includes a field of ladies becoming the #4 and #5 in history, that should be accounted for.

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  • donley2
    replied
    Some implementation of the elo concepts would greatly improve the world rankings.

    Leave a comment:


  • Atticus
    replied
    Originally posted by Tuariki View Post
    But you still haven't explained what those differences are. How were these 3 athletes treated/rated/ranked differently?
    All events are indeed created equally, but when you look at the fields of, for example, Gateshead next week, some are loaded and some are very weak. Yet they all yield the same (high) amount of points for the Rankings.

    The men's 100 Final at the Oly Trials counted less than many 100s at really weak meets or a weak 100 at a particular meet. That should be factored into the algorithm. It is not. And it just so happens that Europeans get more opportunities at those 'valuable' meets than any other group of athletes.

    Thus the claim, one to which I subscribe, that the Rankings are both innately unfair and Euro-centric.

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  • booond
    replied
    Originally posted by Tuariki View Post

    I guess I must be dumb because I still don't understand your answer.

    I thought HJ and 400H both required skill as well as natural ability
    The WA rankings use the same brush to paint all events in the OT or the OG or a DL meet but give more strength to the DL/WC/OG meets in the rankings.

    We know in all those meets that some events are stronger than others.

    There were years when the USA Championship final in the Women's 100m hurdles was as strong or stronger than the WC/OG and all DL meets but the ranking for those meets were higher because they consider a meet with one ranking not specific rankings for each event.

    The women's HJ in the US has one medal contender and a bunch of field fillers whereas the w400h or m200 has three medal contenders or more when you consider the OT finals. Certainly, those events are worth more in a ranking than the women's HJ or men's Javelin where the USA team doesn't have a person considered a medalist but they are all considered equal.

    The Istvan meet the other day was ranked an A while the USA OT was ranked a B.

    This means that winners at Istvan scored 140 points where winners at the OT scored 100 points. Some events at Istvan were better but not all were and if you won at Istvan you were ranked higher than at the OT.

    The system is too simple.

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  • Tuariki
    replied
    Originally posted by ATK View Post

    Anna Ryzhykova (400mH), Elenor Patterson (HJ) and even Maggie Ewen (SP) all finished 3rd in the Stockholm DL, but their events and the fields are currently not created equal.........
    But you you still haven't explained what those differences are. How were these 3 athletes treated/rated/ranked differently?

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  • Tuariki
    replied
    Had a read. Seems to this Antipodean bumpkin, a load of Elo-ngated gobbledegook

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  • booond
    replied
    BTW, some nation's championship events may be better than the OG and should be ranked as such.

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  • Tuariki
    replied
    Originally posted by booond View Post

    Because it is the skills of the competitors which makes the competition important.
    I guess I must be dumb because I still don't understand your answer.

    I thought HJ and 400H both required skill as well as natural ability

    Leave a comment:


  • booond
    replied
    Originally posted by ATK View Post

    Anna Ryzhykova (400mH), Elenor Patterson (HJ) and even Maggie Ewen (SP) all finished 3rd in the Stockholm DL, but their events and the fields are currently not created equal. Im sure there is a way using the WA points table at least to determine how competitive an event currently is and using that distribute an appropriate # of ranking points to each athlete accordingly. Take some years to figure these things out and when its clear, generally fleshed out and easier to understand for athletes then integrate it into actual qualifying for the biggest meet in the sport.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system

    Leave a comment:


  • ATK
    replied
    Originally posted by Tuariki View Post

    And why is that?
    Anna Ryzhykova (400mH), Elenor Patterson (HJ) and even Maggie Ewen (SP) all finished 3rd in the Stockholm DL, but their events and the fields are currently not created equal. Im sure there is a way using the WA points table at least to determine how competitive an event currently is and using that distribute an appropriate # of ranking points to each athlete accordingly. Take some years to figure these things out and when its clear, generally fleshed out and easier to understand for athletes then integrate it into actual qualifying for the biggest meet in the sport.

    Leave a comment:


  • booond
    replied
    Originally posted by Tuariki View Post

    And why is that?
    Because it is the skills of the competitors which makes the competition important.

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  • Tuariki
    replied
    Originally posted by ATK
    And having the women's high jump and Women's 400mH getting the same amount of points in 2021 makes no sense
    And why is that?

    Leave a comment:


  • ATK
    replied
    They should have started the world rankings but not implemented them for qualifying until around Paris 2024. It's not fleshed out as it should be and the pandemic upended travel opportunities for many athletes.

    The fact a low level DL meet gets you more points than the largest national trials in the world makes no sense. And having the women's high jump and Women's 400mH getting the same amount of points in 2021 makes no sense

    Leave a comment:


  • booond
    replied
    Originally posted by Atticus View Post
    As discussed before, the whole process is Euro-centric, whether by design (yes!) or, as you say, sheer laziness.
    Track and field is Euro-centric as far as big meets are concerned. But, the OT is a diverse set of events from very strong - w400h - to weaker - mJav. The events should be ranked separately though that may not help Americans in weaker events.

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  • NotDutra5
    replied
    Originally posted by wamego relays champ View Post
    Am I reading it right that McPherson was just one ranking point away from the 32nd ranked person?

    Is my further understanding correct that the 32nd ranked jumper [Emily Borthwick-GB] benefitted by placing 3rd at the European Team Championship in May 21? I’m no expert on the WA ranking system, but at the risk of sounding provincial, it seems that Europe-based athletes have more ranking point opportunities than those based in North America.
    I don't know if that is true or not but other posters have pointed out that the ranking system does seem to favor European based athletes at least in their opinion.

    Leave a comment:

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