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Meuwly weighs in on the super spike debate: If you're Adidas or Asics, bad luck

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  • Wiederganger
    replied
    We know a fast track and a head to head can mean fast times, look at Thompson and Schippers running 21.6 in 2015. So there is an explanation for those times though, the track and the World's, and they managed to back those times up somewhat the next year running 21.7 and 21.8 respectively.

    Thomas's 21.6 and SAFP's 21.7 seem extraordinary this year. Thomas because she's never broken 22 and then did that, 2nd fastest ever, and SAFP because she's 34 and just isn't a great 200m runner. She's good, but not one of the best ever. I really do think the shoes gave some assistance, but whether its 0.3 who knows.

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  • Conor Dary
    replied
    Originally posted by 26mi235 View Post

    A big enough difference in degree is a difference in kind. Usually the improvement is lots of little bumps in an steadily increasing line, but the change to fiberglass poles was a sea change, even though it actually occurred over decades, the big jump was in the start as they learned how to make them. Here, we have a rather large bump rather than the incremental improvement. As with the vault, some athletes will gain more than others, and it will be this subset that sees the biggest improvement in the professional level of our sport.
    Decades? More like a few years....with the introduction of fibreglass in the early 60s....1963 alone brought a boatload of WRs.
    Last edited by Conor Dary; 07-24-2021, 09:32 PM.

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  • Conor Dary
    replied
    Who wants to run fast and have people think that it was really the spikes that led to the decrease time?

    A lot more than everyone thinks you are using a PED....which has been the case for decades...

    Poor Bolt....already whining....

    Rage, rage against the dying of the light....
    Last edited by Conor Dary; 07-24-2021, 09:35 PM.

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  • Fortius19
    replied
    Originally posted by KevinR View Post
    Hope that works out well for you, Fortius. Let us know what you think.
    Thanks Kevin!

    I tried them last night at an All Comers meet in San Jose, CA. Unfortunately, because this season has been so different due to injuries, a late start, and limited access to all weather tracks I don't have many relevant data points to compare with. I have a rough feel of where I'm at, but that's not too precise. I ran a poorly executed 100 in 13.72 about six weeks ago.

    The shoes definitely feel different immediately. It feels like you're walking on two half circles that just roll you forward from step to step. My warm-up on the track felt 'bouncy'. They definitely feel like they 'push' you forward.

    For my 100, I thought ahead of time 13.4x would be best-case scenario, 13.5x ok, and 13.6x a disappointment. My lifetime PR is 13.09 from 2019, when I was running 13.3 consistently.

    I ran 13.25.


    I also ran 8.40 in the 60m. I ran 8.65 three weeks prior.

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  • steve
    replied
    Originally posted by 26mi235 View Post

    A big enough difference in degree is a difference in kind. Usually the improvement is lots of little bumps in an steadily increasing line, but the change to fiberglass poles was a sea change, even though it actually occurred over decades, the big jump was in the start as they learned how to make them. Here, we have a rather large bump rather than the incremental improvement. As with the vault, some athletes will gain more than others, and it will be this subset that sees the biggest improvement in the professional level of our sport.
    Perhaps, but thus far the sea change has largely been media generated. The two 400h hurdles records that were set were definitely something expected over the past few years. To have a number of people run PRs in an Olympic year is also not surprising. We’ll have to wait for the end of the season and see what the impact was before calling these spikes a change of kind.

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  • 26mi235
    replied
    Originally posted by steve View Post

    Reading this article brought out two interesting points for me:

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...ike-technology

    First, it's kind of a weird position for an athlete. Who wants to run fast and have people think that it was really the spikes that led to the decrease time? At the same time, if you say that the spikes weren't that important you're really not supporting your shoe sponsor.

    Second, Bolt thinking that it's "Weird and unfair" is strange to me, but not because the spikes don't work as advertised. It makes sense that improvements in spike technology would lead to improvements in sprint time. But that's always been the case. Usain Bolt running in his Pumas ran a 9.58. Put him in Carl Lewis's 1984 Nikes and he probably runs slower, and even slower in Bob Hayes's Tokyo Adidas and Jesse Owens's leather spikes. That's the nature of technological progress. Why should it stop now with these spikes?
    A big enough difference in degree is a difference in kind. Usually the improvement is lots of little bumps in an steadily increasing line, but the change to fiberglass poles was a sea change, even though it actually occurred over decades, the big jump was in the start as they learned how to make them. Here, we have a rather large bump rather than the incremental improvement. As with the vault, some athletes will gain more than others, and it will be this subset that sees the biggest improvement in the professional level of our sport.

    Leave a comment:


  • ATK
    replied
    Originally posted by steve View Post

    First, it's kind of a weird position for an athlete. Who wants to run fast and have people think that it was really the spikes that led to the decrease time? At the same time, if you say that the spikes weren't that important you're really not supporting your shoe sponsor.

    Second, Bolt thinking that it's "Weird and unfair" is strange to me, but not because the spikes don't work as advertised. It makes sense that improvements in spike technology would lead to improvements in sprint time. But that's always been the case. Usain Bolt running in his Pumas ran a 9.58. Put him in Carl Lewis's 1984 Nikes and he probably runs slower, and even slower in Bob Hayes's Tokyo Adidas and Jesse Owens's leather spikes. That's the nature of technological progress. Why should it stop now with these spikes?
    I basically agree with both these points. The spikes are very important but they are not the only factor in an athletes improvement. And technology is always improving. Spikes, equipment, training methods, nutrition etc. I would hope things continue to progress and get better as years go by.

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  • Speedster
    replied
    Originally posted by ATK View Post

    Note that Miller-Uibo ran 22.03 and 49.08 in April, her fastest 200 opener and her 2nd fastest 400m opener (49.05 in 2019) ever. She then got a slight injury and shut down her season until late June when she had to run her national trials. She also ran indoor personal bests in the 200/400m this year as well.
    I had heard of the injury but wasn't aware of the impact and perhaps more of the reason to need a boost like some fancy spikes to get her closer to those ahead of her.

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  • steve
    replied
    Originally posted by ATK View Post
    Those are just two examples out of the many names I listed.

    Grant Holloway is in 12.81 form. Switch spikes he's running 12.71 - 12.66?
    Erriyon Knighton is in 19.84 form. Switch spikes he's running 19.54?
    Shamire Little is in 52.39 form. Switch spikes and she's running 51.89 - 51.69?

    Sorry not convinced simply lacing up new spikes gives you that much advantage as is being implied. Sure the technology is improving, but I feel its being too over hyped while not enough credit is given to other factors that go into an athletes performance and success.

    Even you have been hyping up Bol for a while. I didnt expect her to be this fast yet, but I'm sure its because various factors (factors you have noted over the months) not just her shoes and in reality she is just a 53.00 runner. Sydney ran 52.23 in Doha 2 years ago. Making a .33 improvement since then is not just because of the spikes she is wearing.
    Reading this article brought out two interesting points for me:

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...ike-technology

    First, it's kind of a weird position for an athlete. Who wants to run fast and have people think that it was really the spikes that led to the decrease time? At the same time, if you say that the spikes weren't that important you're really not supporting your shoe sponsor.

    Second, Bolt thinking that it's "Weird and unfair" is strange to me, but not because the spikes don't work as advertised. It makes sense that improvements in spike technology would lead to improvements in sprint time. But that's always been the case. Usain Bolt running in his Pumas ran a 9.58. Put him in Carl Lewis's 1984 Nikes and he probably runs slower, and even slower in Bob Hayes's Tokyo Adidas and Jesse Owens's leather spikes. That's the nature of technological progress. Why should it stop now with these spikes?

    Leave a comment:


  • moreover
    replied
    Help me out here. Which labels are specifically the superspikes? Are they available to retail customers? Is there any custom fitting going on for the elites that might be as important to performance as the spike vs. the standard shoe?

    Leave a comment:


  • ATK
    replied
    Originally posted by Speedster View Post
    but SMU hasn't broken 22 this year
    Note that Miller-Uibo ran 22.03 and 49.08 in April, her fastest 200 opener and her 2nd fastest 400m opener (49.05 in 2019) ever. She then got a slight injury and shut down her season until late June when she had to run her national trials. She also ran indoor personal bests in the 200/400m this year as well.

    Leave a comment:


  • KevinR
    replied
    Hope that works out well for you, Fortius. Let us know what you think.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fortius19
    replied
    I just ordered some Nike Maxfly "Super" spikes for myself. I'm entered in a Masters Decathlon Aug 11-12. I dont have natural "ankle stiffness", so I'm eager to try them out. I need all the help I can get.

    Leave a comment:


  • Speedster
    replied
    With big names signed to Adidas, I can't believe they've not developed super spikes. They had a whole year and smaller brands have managed so why not them? Holloway is fast enough, more speed might have inhibited him or messed with his technique in an Olympic year, but SMU hasn't broken 22 this year and Lyles in a better place but Bednerek is close behind.
    Last edited by Speedster; 07-22-2021, 09:14 PM.

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  • ATK
    replied
    Originally posted by 18.99s View Post

    I don't know about the spikes, but some non-Nike athletes have been using Nikes in road races after taping or painting them to hide the Nike logo. It's possible some have done it with spikes, especially if Nike sells logo-less versions to them.
    Yes I think your right about that. I updated my post, but Im just referring to the improvement times noted in the 100/200/400 as noted in the original post and Adidas/Asics disadvantage noted in the article. I have been hearing a lot about the road racing shoes before but I've paid less attention there.

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