¶ 2021 wOG 200: Elaine Thompson-Herah (Jamaica) 21.53 (WL)

[Mr Lover Lover]

Elaine needs to now win the double next year in Eugene. I dont think she has any challengers over 200m in this kind of form. Over 100m, thats a different story, whether Shacarri and Shelly can get at her when she is in top shape is another story.

[moreover]

NY times has an animation on twitter that gives a good guess at the straight splits for the last 75. I get SAFP 7.94, Thomas 7.84, Mboma 7.50, and ETH 7.46. I don't see Mboma ever gaining on ETH, just maintaining. 7.5 flying 75s.

[J2thaD]

For me, you can't just look at something as simple as a double double, no matter how impressive it is. GOAT status always has to be based on an entire career, not just the highlights package, so failures need to be considered.

On the men's side, you have Oerter and Lewis with 4 OG golds but nobody really argues Oerter was the DT GOAT because the rest of career was [edit to add: NOT] stellar in the way that Lewis, a definite LJ GOAT was, year after year, in any competition you want to name.

ETH career isn't over, but if she stays healthy she will definitely be the GOAT. Their careers overlap and when healthy she smokes SFP on the big stage. She also ran a 10.6 PB on the big stage, not on some small obscure meet with three other women in the race, which is akin to U.S. sprinterd running fantastic times at small obscure meets and Eugene but never being able to reproduce them.

[Paced]

ETH career isn't over, but if she stays healthy she will definitely be the GOAT. Their careers overlap and when healthy she smokes SFP on the big stage. She also ran a 10.6 PB on the big stage, not on some small obscure meet with three other women in the race, which is akin to U.S. sprinterd running fantastic times at small obscure meets and Eugene but never being able to reproduce them.

No "definitely" about it. There's SAFP ("smoked" ETH at the big stage that we're trials this year) over the 100m as well as Jackson and Richardson, plus in the 200m there's Mboma (may be challenging for the WR as soon as next year), Jackson and Thomas. New names pop up all the time too.

She'd have to win everything until at least 2023 to become the overall GOAT, and that's one hell of a task.

[Track78]

NY times has an animation on twitter that gives a good guess at the straight splits for the last 75. I get SAFP 7.94, Thomas 7.84, Mboma 7.50, and ETH 7.46. I don't see Mboma ever gaining on ETH, just maintaining. 7.5 flying 75s.

Hmmm not sure about the Mboma/ETH splits. Mboma was definitely gaining, albeit not that much. I rough timed the last 100 splits and had gotten 10.6 for ETH and 10.5 for Mboma.

[Track78]

NY times has an animation on twitter that gives a good guess at the straight splits for the last 75. I get SAFP 7.94, Thomas 7.84, Mboma 7.50, and ETH 7.46. I don't see Mboma ever gaining on ETH, just maintaining. 7.5 flying 75s.

I just saw that animation, dont think it's accurate at all. It had SAFP and Gabby ahead of ETH at about 100-110m...that definitely didn't happen, ETH led almost the entire way past 50m.

[moreover]

I just saw that animation, dont think it's accurate at all. It had SAFP and Gabby ahead of ETH at about 100-110m...that definitely didn't happen, ETH led almost the entire way past 50m.

I look forward to the juicy accurate data someone should have. It is the Olympics.

[DET59]

While I have zero expertise on this subject, my layperson's take is that:

1. This situation shows just how stupid the CAS decision is in only ruling out the 400, 800 and 1500.

2. Semenya must feel really shafted that Mboma was still able to compete in an event that suited her, unlike Semenya having the events either side of her best event ruled out.

3. If a person's testosterone levels are high because they have internal male genitalia then that person should not be allowed to compete in any female event; make that any female only sport.

4. To be a female you need to be born with a vagina, uterus, womb; the basics needed for giving birth. And no male genitalia.

And on this subject, while one can only admire Laurel Hubbard's graciousness:

1. I am glad Hubbard failed

2. Hubbard being allowed to compete and Semenya not, was nonsensical.

3. The supreme irony is that a New Zealand 100% male won a silver medal in the women's eight rowing - as coxswain.

If only the science was so simple. I agree with you the the decision is stupid. However,

#4 would rule out many women who suffer from being born without a uterus (1 in 4,000)... also no Athletic association is going to require all Olympians to prove that have a vagina. Does a hysterectomy rule you out?

#3 If you think proving you have a vagina is problematic, try provng your don't have internal male genitalia. What about a person who's testosterone is naturally very high who doesn't have internal genitalia? Like every human characteristic, there are outliers in just about everything we measure. In basketball height outliers have a big advantage.


The biological world of humans doesn't fit neatly into XX and XY. If we could go back with a time machine we would find out that many past Olympians didn't fit into these neat XX/XY categories, some XX females have had naturally high testosterone that moved them into the normal ranges of men, and Laurel Hubbard was not the first transgender person to compete in the Games.

I also don't think the Olympics or WA will have these issues any where near sorted out by Paris 2024.

Thanks for bringing up some very interesting issues. When I saw Mboma on the medal stand all I saw was a powerful, slightly scrawny, and very happy young woman who's got some high end speed. At the sam time, when I saw Laurel Hubbard fail it made me think of Tracey Lambrechs, the NZ weightlifter who was told to either lose weight or retire, since her spot on the national team was being given to Hubbard.

Like the Drug issues/Drug scandals from the 70's (and beyond) that pretty much destroyed the sport, Athletics is once again getting things wrong...

[gh]

for the last time, this is a "competition" thread, not a quasi-scientific examination

[1.609]

Hmmm not sure about the Mboma/ETH splits. Mboma was definitely gaining, albeit not that much. I rough timed the last 100 splits and had gotten 10.6 for ETH and 10.5 for Mboma.

And that's why the world record still stands. 10.16 last 100 for FGJ in 88.

[upchuckserious]

No "definitely" about it. There's SAFP ("smoked" ETH at the big stage that we're trials this year) over the 100m as well as Jackson and Richardson, plus in the 200m there's Mboma (may be challenging for the WR as soon as next year), Jackson and Thomas. New names pop up all the time too.

She'd have to win everything until at least 2023 to become the overall GOAT, and that's one hell of a task.

No, she would not have to win everything over the next three years to become the overall GOAT. A couple world titles seems well within her grasp, and that should be enough unless Shelly wins yet another World title next year.

She is the one in the driver's seat. All the others you mentioned have to now prove that they can live with her when she is at her best. 10.61 into 0.6 headwind while pointing before the line is like transforming into Super Sayin 2 when your closest challengers are still at Super Sayin 1. Elaine right now is Gohan during the Cell saga. She has gone to another level.

[Paced]

No, she would not have to win everything over the next three years to become the overall GOAT. A couple world titles seems well within her grasp, and that should be enough unless Shelly wins yet another World title next year.

She is the one in the driver's seat. All the others you mentioned have to now prove that they can live with her when she is at her best. 10.61 into 0.6 headwind while pointing before the line is like transforming into Super Sayin 2 when your closest challengers are still at Super Sayin 1. Elaine right now is Gohan during the Cell saga. She has gone to another level.

Do you mean a couple in the literal sense? 6 golds and 1 silver would in no way make her the GOAT. SAFP for one has 7 golds, 2 silvers and a bronze already, and there are still others I would still put beyond her due to overall career dominance and sheer medal count (even if slightly fewer golds), including Felix.

ETH definitely the one to beat right now, no doubt about it, but we've seen time and time again how quickly things can change from one season to the next. ETH and SMU swept the sprints at the last Olympics yet won no golds (and no medals in ETH's case) at the World Champs the following year despite the times across all women's sprints being much slower in 2017.

[upchuckserious]

Do you mean a couple in the literal sense? 6 golds and 1 silver would in no way make her the GOAT. SAFP for one has 7 golds, 2 silvers and a bronze already, and there are still others I would still put beyond her due to overall career dominance and sheer medal count (even if slightly fewer golds), including Felix.

ETH definitely the one to beat right now, no doubt about it, but we've seen time and time again how quickly things can change from one season to the next. ETH and SMU swept the sprints at the last Olympics yet won no golds (and no medals in ETH's case) at the World Champs the following year despite the times across all women's sprints being much slower in 2017.

I think double double is a significant enough achievement to make her the GOAT if she gets two more global championship gold medals. Times are relevant too here, let's not forget, and she's now number 2 at both 100m and 200m. She is what, the first woman to run sub-21.70 more than twice?

[Atticus]

Times are relevant too here, let's not forget, and she's now number 2 at both 100m and 200m. She is what, the first woman to run sub-21.70 more than twice?

Times this summer do NOT factor into any kind of GOAT discussion.

[Wiederganger]

As per another thread:

Thompson has now matched Marjorie Jackson-Nelson with 4 individual Olympic sprint gold medals, which is more than SAFP, VCB, Felix, Flo Jo, Ashford, Koch, Gohr, Devers, Torrance, Ottey, Szewinska, Wockel, Stecher, Richter, Cuthbert, Rudolph, Tyus, Blankers-Koen...

or another way to look at it: she has more individual Olympic golds than VCB and Felix combined; she has more than Flo Jo & Ashford combined; and the same as Koch, Gohr, Ottey, Torrance & Devers combined, who have just 4 between them.

Of course, there are many more combinations one could look at. Bottom line is: the double double in THE most prestigious competition in athletics, one double with the 2nd fastest times ever, is MAJORLY historic, and she has cemented herself as one of the greatest ever.