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  • Originally posted by NotDutra5 View Post

    Seems to me McLaughlin has thus far eschewed the tour of Europe. No way of knowing if that will continue.
    I'm sure if 2020 or 2021 were normal years, she would have gone to Europe (as she did all through 2019, her first year as a pro)

    Comment


    • Originally posted by TN1965 View Post
      If they race multiple times a year, it is likely to happen at some point. After all, even Moses lost to Schmid.
      After 122 wins . . . over 9 years, 9 months and 9 days of winning.
      I'm OK with SM losing after breaking that record.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ATK View Post
        Until we see McLaughlin and Bol hurdling with the quickness and efficiency Muhammad does, both will have tons to improve upon for the next 5+ years.
        And this is why I have her to retain her title in Eugene. Given she had also had the injury and had Covid, it would have been lights out for Syd if Delilah was fully fit.
        Apparently Ignorance is bliss

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Mr Lover Lover View Post

          And this is why I have her to retain her title in Eugene. Given she had also had the injury and had Covid, it would have been lights out for Syd if Delilah was fully fit.
          100% agree

          Comment


          • Originally posted by TN1965 View Post
            If they race multiple times a year, it is likely to happen at some point. After all, even Moses lost to Schmid.
            Originally posted by Atticus View Post
            After 122 wins . . . over 9 years, 9 months and 9 days of winning.
            I'm OK with SM losing after breaking that record.
            The streak was broken by Danny Harris in 1987. Schmid was the last one to beat Moses to start the streak.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ATK View Post
              Until we see McLaughlin and Bol hurdling with the quickness and efficiency Muhammad does, both will have tons to improve upon for the next 5+ years.
              Bol did beat DM in Lausanne after the Olympics. As did Little. Certainly an off race for DM, but Bol ran a much tougher schedule in Tokyo and showed no effects. Likely an age factor there, but it shows that anyone is vulnerable.

              Comment


              • I would also like to say that only one human has ever won Gold in consecutive Olympics in the 400H. Now, Moses certainly would've won in 80 as that winning time might not have even won NCAA's, but factually only Glenn Davis has repeated.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by gm View Post
                  IloveFelix

                  My response was to JMysterio's comment about Bol -- "I think her upside is very positive, they've built her strength sufficiently and as she is young that speed will improve as will her experience in running the event."

                  I simply replied that McLaughlin's flat speed was greater than Bol and I doubted Bol would ever be faster in that way.

                  I should have spelled it out, I suppose, that "flat speed" to me means the 100/200.

                  Nowhere have I said that Bol can't beat McLaughlin in the 400H. It could happen. It likely WILL happen at some point.
                  Yes but that's a critical omission, if any sprint speed comparison were to be used it would be the flat 400 and even that is not a complete certainty. Warholm is a better than average flat 400 guy and Moses never broke 45.

                  I believe in Bol's case she is very tall for a woman in the event, especially with the height of the hurdles only 2 and a half feet. An increase in speed, once the steps are established is a huge advantage.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Atticus View Post
                    A. Maybe, but in IMO whether or not Bol is motivated is irrelevant to what SM does.
                    B. See D.
                    C. I could see that, in a one-off situation.
                    D. I see SM as a 'generational athlete', like Mondo. But unlike Mondo's event, which even the GOAT, Bubka, could not stay undefeated, the 400H, as Moses demonstrated, and despite the fact that there are HURDLES in it, is an event that a great athlete can dominate.

                    I may be wrong in this analysis, but I'm sticking to it till I see otherwise. I wish DM and FB all the best!
                    A) Sure, Bol's level of motivations does not play into McLaughlin's. However, the point I was trying to make is that McLaughlin can remain motivated yet the gap can still be likely to close IF Bol is more motivated.

                    C) I won't be at all surprised if Benjamin turns the tables on Warholm next year and does not only win a one-off, but clearly performs better throughout the season. Samba dominated Warholm in 2018, won H2H 6 times to 0, but has not beaten Warholm since.

                    Yes, I know, Samba has struggled with injuries, but I guess most people are far from sure that an injury-free Samba would beat Warholm 2020, or even Warholm and Benjamin 2021? The point is that the relative strength of the athletes can change rather a lot from one season to the next. As the gap between McLaughlin and Bol is not that wide why would it be impossible for Bol to improve past McLaughlin or for McLaughlin to regress a bit? Considering how awesome McLaughlin was this season I think it entirely possible that she remains highly motivated and injury free, but even so are unable to duplicate her performances of 2021....

                    D) I don't mind you sticking to your analysis, Atticus and rest assured that I actually respect your thoughts a lot. I don't post much on this forum, but I read rather a lot both here and on the forum of the Johnson brothers. The gulf in quality between the posters on these two forums is IMO immense. Really there is a ton of knowledgable posters on this forum.

                    Still I feel I cannot really get to just how/why you have a arrived at your analysis, Atticus.

                    I agree, McLaughlin feels in some ways like a generational talent.

                    Is Warholm a generational talent? What about Benjamin? Would we have considered Benjamin a generational talent if Warholm had remained a decathlete? Is Muhammad a generational talent? Could it be that we in a few years conceivably will think of Bol as a generational talent?

                    What sets McLaughlin apart from Warholm and/or Benjamin/Muhammad? For me the current pool of talent in men's and women's 400 hurdles is almost other wordly.

                    Moses was something else, and I think his legend would have been even greater if not for the Moscow1980 boycott and if the World Champs had been held every second year during his career. His winning streak backs up your statement that it is possible to dominate hurdles events too. However even as it clearly is possible I think such dominance is less likely over hurdles than in flat races. For me Moses solved the 400 hurdles in a better way than almost all of his contemporaries. He kind of cracked the code of the race, he ran it smarter. I think this is part of the reason of his dominance and I think it would be harder to do the same today.

                    The above should not be interpreted in any way as me trying to diminish the achievments of the GOAT.

                    Sorry for raving on, but I still don't understand why/how you and several others have arrived at the conclusion that you cannot see ANYone beating McLaughlin for a while. Obviously not like you owe me an explanation, or anything else for that matter, still I would be plesed if you would explain as I am eager to understand.



                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Awsi Dooger View Post
                      Here is a depiction of something I mentioned the other day, that to threaten McLaughlin in forthcoming years Bol needs to improve her hurdling technique and take more risks, with lower clearance on the front foot. Right now Bol launches while McLaughlin skims. Sydney is more balanced with both legs nearer the same level while Bol concedes that her lead left leg gets too high simultaneous with her trailing right leg too low. It is kind of like downhill skiing in which air time over a hill looks spectacular but is costing you time.

                      This is Bol from yesterday's race in Bellinzona:

                      https://imgur.com/a/gADyzBT

                      This is Sydney from the Olympic trials:

                      https://imgur.com/a/0zKTFOK

                      Not the identical camera angle but as close as I could find, using recent races and the same point of clearance using the same lead leg. Bol right now looks similar to Sydney three years ago at Kentucky, when her clearance was also too high but I'd say slightly lower than current Bol. And Bol herself is noticeably lower and better than one year ago.

                      Sydney has used sprint hurdling to flatten out her technique to the point it's like a hybrid of the two events. She is really getting her foot on the ground quickly especially toward the end of the race. The other day I read an account of the Tokyo race from a hurdles expert. He said Muhammad had that race won other than Sydney ran the last three hurdles far superior than she'd ever done before.

                      BTW, I hope I can use that upload site here. Strictly convenience for me.
                      I like reading your post, Awsi. IMO you bring a lot of good insights. Still I am always a bit confused, as for me your posts always makes the case that McLaughlin has a superior technique to Bol. I agree even if I think Muhammad is better than both Bol and Mclaughlin with how she clears the hurdles.

                      I read your posts as making the case that Bol has so much to work on. So many possible ways to improve and I agree with that. Really she should have many thing to improve in her technique as she has been hurdling a shorter time period than almost all the women she is competing against.

                      What confuses me is that if we agree that Bol has a ton of issues she possibly can improve, why does that mean she cannot improve during the off-season and potentially beat McLaughlin at some point soon?
                      Last edited by IloveFelix; 09-16-2021, 09:44 AM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by gm View Post
                        IloveFelix

                        My response was to JMysterio's comment about Bol -- "I think her upside is very positive, they've built her strength sufficiently and as she is young that speed will improve as will her experience in running the event."

                        I simply replied that McLaughlin's flat speed was greater than Bol and I doubted Bol would ever be faster in that way.

                        I should have spelled it out, I suppose, that "flat speed" to me means the 100/200.

                        Nowhere have I said that Bol can't beat McLaughlin in the 400H. It could happen. It likely WILL happen at some point.
                        Yes, I for one misunderstood your comment about flat speed. As we are discussing the 400 hurdles, it made sense to me that you were talking about the 400 flat when you referred to flat speed. Good that you clarified.

                        Still I am a bit puzzled, why did you refer to the 100/200 speed in the first place? Do you think it is relevant for Bol's chances of beating McLaughlin at some point?

                        My impression was that you were part of the crowd that find it unlikely that Bol possibly can beat McLaughlin during the next few years. This was caused by your statements about flat speed combined with your statement about prodigies. However, I have not written that you have said that "Bol cannot beat McLaughlin in the 400H".

                        My only question was, why it is relevant for the discussion that Mclaughlin has better 100/200 speed. I am not saying it is not relevant, just trying to better understand how you reason.
                        Last edited by IloveFelix; 09-16-2021, 10:19 AM.

                        Comment


                        • IloveFelix I think your question regarding why some think Benjamin could beat Warholm, but they don't think Bol will beat McLaughlin is clear. It's the same reason why many posters on here relished Gatlin's return and want/ed him to win: Benjamin and McLaughlin (and Gatlin) are American, and this is an American forum with mainly American posters. People will always favour their own and be subjective. Tis just life.

                          As Bol is Dutch, and I have some Dutch ancestry (plus it's the UK's nearest neighbour) I'm a fan boy of Bol. I'm probably very subjective too. But one thing I could never do is boldly state "X athlete will never be beaten!" because I think that's pretty ridiculous in this day and age (no offence to anyone!)

                          I genuinely cannot get my head round why some cannot see Bol's potential upside is greater than McLaughlins, though, when one considers their hurdling experience and Bol's much poorer technique. That's just common sense to me. That's where I feel bias & favouritism comes in.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by cajun5150 View Post

                            And Sydney is not young
                            They are both young. Wish I could be 21-22 again, it was truly a brilliant time. I think the six months between them is not of any consequence even if I think Tuariki's post, about performance by age, were brilliant and good fun.

                            The points I was trying to make was not that Bol was younger, but rather that such young athletes are IMO more likely to develop from one season to the next than older athletes.

                            As I think both athlete's are more likely to develop than athletes further along in the career, I put less stock in the advantage McLaughlin currently holds, than if the athletes would have been as an example 27. Maybe I am wrong about that, but that was my line of thinking.

                            The second point was that I feel that Bol has better possibilities to improve her technique as she has spent less time on it yet.
                            Last edited by IloveFelix; 09-16-2021, 09:42 AM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Wiederganger View Post
                              IloveFelix I think your question regarding why some think Benjamin could beat Warholm, but they don't think Bol will beat McLaughlin is clear. It's the same reason why many posters on here relished Gatlin's return and want/ed him to win: Benjamin and McLaughlin (and Gatlin) are American, and this is an American forum with mainly American posters. People will always favour their own and be subjective. Tis just life.

                              As Bol is Dutch, and I have some Dutch ancestry (plus it's the UK's nearest neighbour) I'm a fan boy of Bol. I'm probably very subjective too. But one thing I could never do is boldly state "X athlete will never be beaten!" because I think that's pretty ridiculous in this day and age (no offence to anyone!)

                              I genuinely cannot get my head round why some cannot see Bol's potential upside is greater than McLaughlins, though, when one considers their hurdling experience and Bol's much poorer technique. That's just common sense to me. That's where I feel bias & favouritism comes in.
                              Your points are well taken, Wiederganger. Maybe you are right, however I am not ready to conclude the same way as you yet regarding "murkan bias" going against Bol, even if I see it as a clear possibility that posters can have national biases wherever they hail from. I know I can get affected by such a bias at times.

                              Regarding the 400 hurdles women, I am not really sure who I like the best. Honestly I am probably a proper fanboi of all of them.

                              I am so sick impressed by Dalilah Muhammad. The way she came back from illness to first perform outstandingly at the US Trials and than to step it up even more at the Tokyo Games. Just like Benjamin in the men's race it is unreal to produce such a time and yet have to walk away with the silver. Yes, I am aware maybe the shoes and/or track played a part, but no matter what the performances of Benjamin and Muhammad was IMO surreal. The way Muhammad delivered in Doha two years ago to keep McLaughlin at bay was also just insanely impressive IMO.

                              Sydney McLaughlin I have been impressed with more or less from the day I learned about her at the US Trials in 2016 (I know I was slow to the party but she had not caught my eye before 2016). Her IG-video made me more of a fan than ever because that stuff is exactly what I want me kids to see and get. Even as you are a star and a monster-success it is far from sure that life is easy. I truly wish more stars would post such videos instead of always glossing over any issue.

                              Femke Bol I know less about to be honest. Still I find her massively impressive and I think it is probable that she will move on to do even greater things in the years to come.

                              I am less of a fan of Shamier Little even if find her very interesting. I do not dislike her at all though.

                              I don't have any Bol bias. Maybe I have a Warholm bias, but if I do it has to be rather small, because I really like Rai Benjamin too and I am compelled by McMaster's story;

                              Struggling with injuries in college, things falling in place working with coach Xavier "Dag" Samuels, but losing his coach as he fell of a roof and died during hurricane Irma.

                              Regarding the "Bol never to beat a healthy and motivated McLaughlin discussion", I suspect biases can be at play. However, it is also possible that there is something I miss or just don't get. IMO it makes sense to give everyone the benefit of doubt and I am always happy when/if others extend the same courtesy to me.

                              To be honest I have not spotted any Bol-bias in your posts, Wiederganger, but I will make sure to read more carefully going forward
                              Last edited by IloveFelix; 09-16-2021, 09:42 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Awsi Dooger View Post
                                Here is a depiction of something I mentioned the other day, that to threaten McLaughlin in forthcoming years Bol needs to improve her hurdling technique and take more risks, with lower clearance on the front foot. Right now Bol launches while McLaughlin skims. Sydney is more balanced with both legs nearer the same level while Bol concedes that her lead left leg gets too high simultaneous with her trailing right leg too low. It is kind of like downhill skiing in which air time over a hill looks spectacular but is costing you time.

                                This is Bol from yesterday's race in Bellinzona:

                                https://imgur.com/a/gADyzBT

                                This is Sydney from the Olympic trials:

                                https://imgur.com/a/0zKTFOK

                                Not the identical camera angle but as close as I could find, using recent races and the same point of clearance using the same lead leg. Bol right now looks similar to Sydney three years ago at Kentucky, when her clearance was also too high but I'd say slightly lower than current Bol. And Bol herself is noticeably lower and better than one year ago.

                                Sydney has used sprint hurdling to flatten out her technique to the point it's like a hybrid of the two events. She is really getting her foot on the ground quickly especially toward the end of the race. The other day I read an account of the Tokyo race from a hurdles expert. He said Muhammad had that race won other than Sydney ran the last three hurdles far superior than she'd ever done before.

                                BTW, I hope I can use that upload site here. Strictly convenience for me.
                                I posted the below a while ago, when I edited to correct a typo, it got flagged, so I decided to post it again. If that is bad somehow, GH. Let me know I i will obviously not do again.



                                I like reading your post, Awsi. IMO you bring a lot of good insights. Still I am always a bit confused, as for me your posts always makes the case that McLaughlin has a superior technique to Bol. I agree even if I think Muhammad is better than both Bol and Mclaughlin with how she clears the hurdles.

                                I read your posts as making the case that Bol has so much to work on. So many possible ways to improve and I agree with that. Really she should have many thing to improve in her technique as she has been hurdling a shorter time period than almost all the women she is competing against.

                                What confuses me is that if we agree that Bol has a ton of issues she possibly can improve, why does that mean she cannot improve during the off-season and potentially beat McLaughlin at some point soon?

                                Comment

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