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  • Originally posted by JMysterio View Post

    Bol did beat DM in Lausanne after the Olympics. As did Little. Certainly an off race for DM, but Bol ran a much tougher schedule in Tokyo and showed no effects. Likely an age factor there, but it shows that anyone is vulnerable.
    I wasn't talking about either of them vs Muhammad. My point was that both Bol and McLaughlin still have a very long way to go in terms of their hurdle form and efficiency so will have tons to improve on for years to come.

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    • Originally posted by ATK View Post
      I wasn't talking about either of them vs Muhammad. My point was that both Bol and McLaughlin still have a very long way to go in terms of their hurdle form and efficiency so will have tons to improve on for years to come.
      I acknowledge that but my point is there are days when your form doesn't matter. It's possible a 55 second hurdler has perfect form but is just slow. I mean there's a reason Sage Watson is just a field filler and I don't think it's her form.

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      • Originally posted by JMysterio View Post
        I acknowledge that but my point is there are days when your form doesn't matter. It's possible a 55 second hurdler has perfect form but is just slow. I mean there's a reason Sage Watson is just a field filler and I don't think it's her form.
        I'm not sure what the point is in connection to Bol and McLaughlin's potential improvement. Neither Bol or McLaughlin are 55,54 or 53 second hurdlers. They are all time greats and as fast as they are running, they will have to improve upon something if they want to either remain ahead (McLaughlin) or surpass (Bol) each other.

        One-off races are great sure, maybe form wont matter there per-say. But in the big races that matter and in this current era, unless you are far and above the rest, which neither of these current 3 ladies are from each other, form matters. McLaughlin lost in Doha 2019 because of poor form. She won in Tokyo 2021 because of slightly improved form. Dalilah Muhammad is by far the slowest of the 3 (over 400m and 200m) yet she makes up for it with her form and efficiency over the hurdles.

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        • Originally posted by ATK View Post
          I'm not sure what the point is in connection to Bol and McLaughlin's potential improvement. Neither Bol or McLaughlin are 55,54 or 53 second hurdlers. They are all time greats and as fast as they are running, they will have to improve upon something if they want to either remain ahead (McLaughlin) or surpass (Bol) each other.

          One-off races are great sure, maybe form wont matter there per-say. But in the big races that matter and in this current era, unless you are far and above the rest, which neither of these current 3 ladies are from each other, form matters. McLaughlin lost in Doha 2019 because of poor form. She won in Tokyo 2021 because of slightly improved form. Dalilah Muhammad is by far the slowest of the 3 (over 400m and 200m) yet she makes up for it with her form and efficiency over the hurdles.
          I see nothing wrong with Bol's or SM's hurdling. The women's hurdles are only two and half feet high. Have you noticed how the men always have guys clipping the hurdles, sometimes to the point of tripping and falling but women do not at anywhere near the frequency? For women, it's get your steps down and run fast, hurdle form is probably the least of things to correct because the hurdles are so low.

          Looking at the Tokyo race it's obvious SM won because she had the fastest leg turnover down the stretch. DM went out very fast, SM and Bol were even until right before the 9th hurdle and were trailing DM and that's when SM started making up ground, pulling away from Bol and running down a struggling DM. I don't think form played into this race at all. It was speed that won.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdjBR_LeZCM

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          • Originally posted by IloveFelix View Post


            What confuses me is that if we agree that Bol has a ton of issues she possibly can improve, why does that mean she cannot improve during the off-season and potentially beat McLaughlin at some point soon?
            Is anyone saying that Bol can't potentially beat anyone or are we flying a false flag here?

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            • Originally posted by NotDutra5 View Post

              Is anyone saying that Bol can't potentially beat anyone or are we flying a false flag here?
              I think you nailed it...

              Comment


              • Originally posted by NotDutra5 View Post

                Is anyone saying that Bol can't potentially beat anyone or are we flying a false flag here?
                Unsure, as always it is possible that I have misunderstood and am unintentionally flying a false flag. However I think there have been many statements in the thread severely underestimating Bol's achievement, talent, potential etc.


                Some examples below:

                Atticus:

                "If SM stays highly motivated.
                If SM just sticks to the 4H.
                If SM stays healthy.

                Then . . . I don't..."



                (Written about Anyones chances of beating McLaughlin for some time)




                Mr Lover Lover:

                "Ill make an outlandish statement here, Bol wont ever beat a healthy SM in a final"



                Fair chance Atticus and Mr Lover Lover are right as McLaughlin definitely was better than Bol this season. Still I am curious what they base their statements on. Hence I asked...




                Awsi Dogger:

                "Bol is terrific but she doesn't have more potential than McLaughlin. Not even close"

                "Bol may look great on that long striding run to the wire alongside aching Shamier Little. But substitute Sydney McLaughlin and the pecking order is reversed.

                I really don't see this changing."



                Awsi Dooger IMO has made several good posts, and I don't think he has shut the door completely for Bol to improve past a motivated and healthy McLaughlin, but he did shut the door ireversibly, it seems, regarding who has the most potential, which for me is weird. IMO it is just impossible to gauge the potential of Bol at this stage.

                For me Bol's situation now is somewhat similar to Warholm's late 2017. They both have experienced success after working the event seriously for just 2 years and I remember several people were somewhat disrespectful both towards Warholm's achievement and for sure his potential in the event.

                To me it seems precisely the same is happening now, just that the athlete is no longer Warholm but another Northern European coming from a country with not a ton of recent success in the event.Warholm's hurdling technique was borderline laughable in Rio2016. Much improved when he became world champion in London2017, but it should have been obvious that he had a decent chance of improving it substantially considering how little time he had seriously worked on the event. The same is true about Bol today.

                As I see it differently from the above posters, it makes me curious and I want to learn more about why people think there is no way Bol has; the most room for improvement, the best potenital in the event and no chance of beating a healthy and highly motivated McLaughlin.




                JimboJames:

                "She certainly has the talent to match Bol…putting it together will come, I’m sure."

                (Above was written about Shamier Little)

                Again a statement which does not really align with the facts as I see them. Bol has beaten Little everytime they have raced, even if Little has waaaaay more experience in the event. I cannot understand what the claim that Little's talent can match Bol's it is based on?


                If I have raised a false flag I will be the first to apologize. It has not been my intention.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by IloveFelix View Post
                  If I have raised a false flag I will be the first to apologize. It has not been my intention.
                  I dont think you or Wiederganger (or anyone on the McLaughlin side) are wrong or raising false flags or anything, but I think everyone is just approaching it from different perspectives, with a bit of bias/preference sprinkled in as someone noted earlier.

                  McLaughlin and Bol are both very young and very fast. There are good arguments for Bol having more upside (a few months younger, less time in the event, not as technically sound over the hurdles, can improve flat speed, no global golds yet, etc.) but there are good arguments for McLaughlin as well (can improve on hurdle technique, no world championship gold, still very young, already half a second faster than Bol at the "same age", etc.).

                  Sure some arguments may produce more improvement and may mean more to others, but we have to acknowledge we really don't know, so making a sure fire prediction is just guess work. Remember in 2019, McLaughlin was basically handed the Doha gold by many because she was so young and fast. Not only before USAs, but even after USAs when Muhammad broke the world record. Also remember Little won world silver at the age of 20 and has won nothing since.

                  My bias though will continue to pick Muhammad in Eugene. Bol and McLaughlin can duke it out for silver next year.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ATK View Post
                    I dont think you or Wiederganger (or anyone on the McLaughlin side) are wrong or raising false flags or anything, but I think everyone is just approaching it from different perspectives, with a bit of bias/preference sprinkled in as someone noted earlier.

                    McLaughlin and Bol are both very young and very fast. There are good arguments for Bol having more upside (a few months younger, less time in the event, not as technically sound over the hurdles, can improve flat speed, no global golds yet, etc.) but there are good arguments for McLaughlin as well (can improve on hurdle technique, no world championship gold, still very young, already half a second faster than Bol at the "same age", etc.).

                    Sure some arguments may produce more improvement and may mean more to others, but we have to acknowledge we really don't know, so making a sure fire prediction is just guess work. Remember in 2019, McLaughlin was basically handed the Doha gold by many because she was so young and fast. Not only before USAs, but even after USAs when Muhammad broke the world record. Also remember Little won world silver at the age of 20 and has won nothing since.

                    My bias though will continue to pick Muhammad in Eugene. Bol and McLaughlin can duke it out for silver next year.
                    This mirrors my thoughts rather well. I don't think Bol is a favorite to beat McLaughlin next year. My guess for the podium is:

                    McLaughlin
                    Bol
                    Muhammad

                    However I am far from sure about my GUESS. I can clearly see the case for Muhammad winning. Amazing results this year after illness and she has delivered in Championship settings so many times. Neither will I be surprised if another athlete occupies a place on the podium.

                    I won't be at all shocked if Atticus is right and Bol never beats a healthy and motivated McLaughlin. Neither will I be very surprised if Mr Lover Lover is right and Bol never beats McLaughlin in a final. What I fail to grasp is how sure they seem to be even as it for me is impossible to gauge the potential of Bol, as she is still to raw.

                    I have McLaughlin as the favourire myself, the reason my questions are directed towards the McLaughlin camp is not that I disagree with them about who is the favourite next year, it is just that the bulk of the surefire statements seem to originate with that camp.

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