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if you think NCAA men & wome should be running same distance in XC....

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  • #16
    I like the idea of making the races equal, but the petition is asking for probably too much with proposing changing both distances at the same time (I guess D3 men would be completely unchanged over the terms of this change.org proposal). It also includes, in just a few short paragraphs, some strange and not really cohesive arguments.

    In this time of unparalleled social change and reflection, we request that the NCAA Division I, II and III Cross Country Committees and NCAA President Mark Emmert take an important step forward for equity and inclusion by creating NCAA Cross Country Championship race schedules that offer equal race distance opportunity for women and men.
    Seems reasonable for the most part. I sort of feel like the word "equity" is being used as a buzzword here, as equity is often used a reasoning for treating people or groups differently in order to be more fair, but I can let that go since there is no need to make this about semantics.

    8km for both genders. We are asking for an 8km standard distance for the NCAA Cross Country Championships for both genders.
    That's a pretty bold ask since the men have been running 6miles or 10K for well over 50 years. I think limiting the petition to just the women's distance would make more sense.

    The current 6km women’s distance is too close to the 5km distance that women run in High School.
    I fail to see why this matters one bit.

    With the time gap closing at longer distances, women are unquestionably ready for the 8km distance.
    Is this one of those things were a statistician took data and predicted that the women's world records will be faster than the men's in 80 years? Because if not, I'm not really understanding this sentence either.

    Women are ready for a new challenge. On the men’s side, they are already competing in the 8km distance for the majority of their season and racing an 8km at the Championships makes sense. In addition, most colleges have an 8km course already in place and racing both genders on the same course is logistically easier.
    Yeah, This makes a lot of sense to me. I've always wondered why the men's race changed distance for the championship. It does have history on its side though, and racing 8k most of the year (for teams that even bother racing much...), but 10K for the championship isn't that weird. In track, most LD athletes limit the number of 10,000s that they run per year if that's their focus

    Why now? It’s time for the NCAA Cross Country Championships to follow the race formats of other domestic and international races and equalize race distances. The World Athletics Cross Country Championships were equalized in 2016, with both genders competing in a 10km race. At the NCAA Track and Field Championships both women and men have had the opportunity to compete in the 5k and 10k since 1982. Road races don’t discriminate with men and women successfully competing together in 5k’s, 10k’s and marathons.
    hmmm, so you're saying that women would have no trouble running 10K, so if you're looking for equal distances, why not have the petition requesting to simply match the current men's setup that's been in place for half a century? It would make course setup a little easier at NCAAs.

    The Numbers. Unquestionably coaches worry that women would quit the Cross Country team with longer distance races. When the NCAA race distances increased from 5km to 6km in the year 2000 there was no significant dip in participation. In fact, women’s cross country participation has continued to grow since that jump. In addition the greater racing community has seen an enormous amount of growth in participation in particular among women running longer distance races. Women are ready to race longer and equal distances!
    Good! but are men ready to race shorter and equal distances?

    Equality by 2023. We are asking the NCAA to mandate equality of competition by 2023. We propose giving the NCAA and member institutions two years to adjust their schedules to accommodate an 8km race distance for both genders in all divisions.
    Here's the equality vs equity thing again, but this time used correctly! Surely an extra 10 minutes for the stragglers in the open race to finish an extra 2K won't mess the schedules up too much. While I think you're going to mostly have the same winners with any distances between 5k and half marathon, I can easily get behind increasing the distance of the women's race, especially because I don't have to run it. Heck, why not make it 11K just to show fans of the men's side how tough their female counterparts are. The time gap is closing at longer distances, after all!

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Merner521 View Post
      That's a pretty bold ask since the men have been running 6miles or 10K for well over 50 years.
      No man competing in the NCAA has been running any distance for 50 years. Other men ran 10K over 50 years ago, but none of them are still on any college teams.

      The distances that men and women are running today in XC have been that way for the entire lives of the men and women who are and will be competing. That other men ran it this way longer than other women doesn't hold water as a justification for making the men's distance be the gold standard that today's women should switch to, rather than vice versa or both genders changing what they run.
      18.99s
      Senior Member
      Last edited by 18.99s; 11-03-2021, 09:12 PM.

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      • #18
        I have always heard that a sizable number of Women’s coaches like the 6k distance because it allows more of their 800/1500 runners compete seriously in XC. It does seem a bit ironic given that the women’s teams have more scholarships to spread around that this seems a priority to some women’s coaches.

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        • #19
          Honest question: Has a change.org petition ever resulted in anything?

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Halfmiler2 View Post
            I have always heard that a sizable number of Women’s coaches like the 6k distance because it allows more of their 800/1500 runners compete seriously in XC. It does seem a bit ironic given that the women’s teams have more scholarships to spread around that this seems a priority to some women’s coaches.
            as i recall, back when NCAA men were running just 4M it wasn't uncommon for a halfmiler to be a significant player
            gh
            Administrator
            Last edited by gh; 11-05-2021, 05:54 PM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Cooter Brown View Post
              Honest question: Has a change.org petition ever resulted in anything?
              I doubt it...I get these change.org emails all the time ...some half baked ideas going nowhere.

              I thought the choice was odd for something like this....just involving folks who know nothing about cross country.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by gh View Post

                as i recall, back when NCAA men were running just 5M it wasn't uncommon for a halfmiler to be a significant player
                I don't think the D1 meet ever was 5 miles.

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                • #23
                  Looks like it was only 4 miles prior to 1965.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_M...y_Championship

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                  • #24
                    Tom O'Hara won in 1962...milers could do well at that distance. Tom Sullivan also did well..

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Cooter Brown View Post
                      Honest question: Has a change.org petition ever resulted in anything?
                      Yes, but rarely:

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Change...able_petitions

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                      • #26
                        Maybe just follow International standards?

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Conor Dary View Post
                          Tom O'Hara won in 1962...milers could do well at that distance. Tom Sullivan also did well..
                          Dave Wottle finished 12th in 1971 and Tony Waldrop was 11th in 1972. Marty Liquori, when he was focusing on the mile, finished 9th in 1970. Interestingly, it seems Jim Ryun never ran in an NCAA cross country championship. He did start the 1971 AAU race but dropped out.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Conor Dary View Post

                            I don't think the D1 meet ever was 5 miles.
                            oops... a 1-key-off typo

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Chicago View Post

                              Dave Wottle finished 12th in 1971 and Tony Waldrop was 11th in 1972. Marty Liquori, when he was focusing on the mile, finished 9th in 1970. Interestingly, it seems Jim Ryun never ran in an NCAA cross country championship. He did start the 1971 AAU race but dropped out.
                              Wilson Waigwa was 3rd and Steve Lacy 5th in the mid 70's

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                              • #30
                                Drifting further off topic, it’s pretty cool that John Walker finished 4th in the World XC Championship in 1975.

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