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  • #31
    Originally posted by gh View Post
    this is only the second time a school has had both individual winners; first was Indiana '88

    trivia question: without looking, name the two Hoosiers
    Barefoot S. African not named Zola.
    Michelle Dekkers rings a bell?

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Conor Dary View Post

      That looked far worse than leg cramp.. You wouldn't know that while he was racing. They should have just pulled him from the course...he did 6+ minutes for the final k.... heat stress can also be dangerous.... hopefully he recovers completely but that is not a certainty.

      An Olympian friend in England saw it and was appalled....thinking it could have been her son who just missed qualifying last week. Good thing he didn't go.
      There was also a woman in the same distress in the woman's field. It was not that warm...particularly for here...on Saturday but the humidity may have affected a few athletes who are not accustomed to it. Everyone reacts differently.

      These athletes should be pulled from the field once it is determined it isn't simply an injury. It's a race. Two things can happen. One is that they are pulled and maybe it screws up some teams score. The other is that they are not pulled and I don't think anyone wants to think about the possible result here. I thought Anderson and Tollefson's comments about the athletes toughing it out were pretty ridiculous including Tollefson's comment regarding the woman making it to the finish and "she was fine". If she was "fine" she wouldn't have been on her back and unable to get up 100m from the finish.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Steele View Post
        I'm not sure calling a 19 year old running 24 seconds behind a 24 year old (couple weeks from turning 25) that has run 27:41 on the track a step backward. Every xc race is new and unique, this year was a barn burner, taking 20 seconds off a CR held by a pro. He finished down the chart a little, and probably turned in the best ever U.S. performance at 10k by someone his age.
        I said a little step backward. Maybe plateaued is a better description.

        As you said, every xc race is new but finishing times mean nothing, it's about placing and spreads. As one of the top returners he was still good, but I would've thought that 8 months later he'd have closed the gap on Mantz, he was about the same distance behind as he was in March and especially on a course that suited his track skill. Maybe he ran too many races between 2 xc championships, NCAA track and then Olympic trials.
        JMysterio
        Senior Member
        Last edited by JMysterio; 11-22-2021, 02:04 PM.

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        • #34
          I don’t know about any others but Chapa ran 28:49.6 in 9th place as a freshman in 1976.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by NotDutra5 View Post

            There was also a woman in the same distress in the woman's field. It was not that warm...particularly for here...on Saturday but the humidity may have affected a few athletes who are not accustomed to it. Everyone reacts differently.

            These athletes should be pulled from the field once it is determined it isn't simply an injury. It's a race. Two things can happen. One is that they are pulled and maybe it screws up some teams score. The other is that they are not pulled and I don't think anyone wants to think about the possible result here. I thought Anderson and Tollefson's comments about the athletes toughing it out were pretty ridiculous including Tollefson's comment regarding the woman making it to the finish and "she was fine". If she was "fine" she wouldn't have been on her back and unable to get up 100m from the finish.
            The woman mentioned was Sophie O'Sullivan, daughter of Olympian Sonia O'Sullivan!
            I just watched full race coverage on the NCAA website.
            The stream ends before she gets to the line, but Fast Women newsletter says she ended 244th out of 250 finishers.
            Right before the end, you can see her in the exact same condition as Teare, with a medic running towards her.
            She was still maybe 80-100 meters back, but apparently they let her finish!!
            O'Sullivan ran for Washington!

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            • #36
              Originally posted by DrJay View Post
              I don’t know about any others but Chapa ran 28:49.6 in 9th place as a freshman in 1976.
              But you can't compare cross country times on different courses, even the same course. So many things play into it besides course difficulty. The soil could be softer, the grass longer, the pace is different depending on the leaders. Josh Methner broke Craig Virgin's state hs xc record from 50 years ago but is Methner as good as Virgin? Not right now so far. Not even close.

              I never look at finish times except to see the spreads between runners.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by TN1965 View Post
                Here is a guy who should move to road as soon as possible. He doesn't have the closing speed to be a medal threat at Olympic or WC 10k.
                Funny you should say that. In my interview with him, he said he wanted to run a half marathon soon. He said that's initially how he got started as a 12 year old...training for long distance races https://www.ubiquitous.live/
                sorry for the stereo sound. Working on getting that fixed.
                ubiQuitous1
                Senior Member
                Last edited by ubiQuitous1; 11-22-2021, 02:46 PM.

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                • #38
                  Interesting connection...Tom Jones coached now FSU Coach Bob Braman in '75 and '76 at Chamberlain High School in Tampa, FL. He left there to take over the NC State program. They won the AIAW cross country in '79 and '80 with Rollie Geiger in charge of distance runners. Rollie coached Betty Jo Springs at Bradenton Bayshore, just south of Tampa, before he came to NC State...I guess they knew each other. NC State won AIAW in Tally in 1979. They win again in 2021 with Bob Braman part of the group that brought the first NCAA XC Champs to Florida.
                  Geiger married Springs...not sure when exactly.
                  Also Jack Bacheler coached the Shea sisters prior to Rollie Geiger taking over.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by JMysterio View Post

                    They'll clean up for sure. Great Oak and Loyola are both quality programs and NP went 1-6 on them. I will like to see when the Youngs and the Sahlmans are gone to see if they can maintain this incredible development. Also to see how NP alumni fair post high school. So far only Nico is any kind of barometer and he really took a little step backward this year. Any idea what kind of mileage they're running in HS?
                    At Prenationals after my interview, Theo Quax kidded Young that he ran harder in high school than they ran at NAU so it was probably pretty high mileage.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by JMysterio View Post

                      But you can't compare cross country times on different courses, even the same course. So many things play into it besides course difficulty. The soil could be softer, the grass longer, the pace is different depending on the leaders. Josh Methner broke Craig Virgin's state hs xc record from 50 years ago but is Methner as good as Virgin? Not right now so far. Not even close.

                      I never look at finish times except to see the spreads between runners.
                      Of course you can compare....especially on the same course....everyone does it.

                      Whether Mether is as good as Virgin is irrelevant.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by ubiQuitous1 View Post

                        At Prenationals after my interview, Theo Quax kidded Young that he ran harder in high school than they ran at NAU so it was probably pretty high mileage.
                        I found this, appears their top guys do about 70 mpw during Sept and Oct but he emphasizes they don't over race. Could be the longer race distance and training for it is something Young is still adjusting to but his hs training certainly prepared him for college running.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by NotDutra5 View Post

                          There was also a woman in the same distress in the woman's field. It was not that warm...particularly for here...on Saturday but the humidity may have affected a few athletes who are not accustomed to it. Everyone reacts differently.

                          These athletes should be pulled from the field once it is determined it isn't simply an injury. It's a race. Two things can happen. One is that they are pulled and maybe it screws up some teams score. The other is that they are not pulled and I don't think anyone wants to think about the possible result here. I thought Anderson and Tollefson's comments about the athletes toughing it out were pretty ridiculous including Tollefson's comment regarding the woman making it to the finish and "she was fine". If she was "fine" she wouldn't have been on her back and unable to get up 100m from the finish.
                          There were a lot of stupid comments on Twitter also by the pundits about how 'gutsy' Teare was. Absolutely nuts. People don't understand how fast you can deteriorate. Salazar almost died at Falmouth, a 7 mile race in 1978. You would think these idiots would remember that.

                          Anyone lying on the ground during the race is not fine.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by NotDutra5 View Post

                            There was also a woman in the same distress in the woman's field. It was not that warm...particularly for here...on Saturday but the humidity may have affected a few athletes who are not accustomed to it. Everyone reacts differently.

                            These athletes should be pulled from the field once it is determined it isn't simply an injury. It's a race. Two things can happen. One is that they are pulled and maybe it screws up some teams score. The other is that they are not pulled and I don't think anyone wants to think about the possible result here. I thought Anderson and Tollefson's comments about the athletes toughing it out were pretty ridiculous including Tollefson's comment regarding the woman making it to the finish and "she was fine". If she was "fine" she wouldn't have been on her back and unable to get up 100m from the finish.
                            I think almost everyone would, in theory, favor the notion that xc runners who are showing extreme distress, particularly if they can't stay on their feet, "should" be removed from the field and attention focused on medical treatment.

                            But, in practice, not that easy to implement. Are volunteers supposed to physically grapple with a runner who is determined to advance by crawling? And the medical facilities the runner needs (IV fluid apparatus and the like) are at the finish line. How do the volunteers get the runner there?

                            There are hundreds of runners in any one xc race and runners collapsing before the finish in all kinds of weather conditions happens quite often in American high school and college xc. It's an unattractive part of the sport, particularly when put on national display, but not easily solved.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Conor Dary View Post

                              Of course you can compare....especially on the same course....everyone does it.

                              Whether Mether is as good as Virgin is irrelevant.
                              No everyone doesn't do it. Course conditions and weather make all the difference. Check the winning times at Terre Haute when the meet was held there from 2004-2011. The winner ranged from 28:41 to 30:44. Are you going to say one NCAA champ is two minutes faster than another based on they ran the same course?

                              The Virgin Methner comparison is very relevant because Virgin was a better hs runner than Methner yet Methner took down his record. Verzbicas was a better hs runner than Virgin but couldn't take the record down. To think you can accurately compare course times historically is guessing.
                              JMysterio
                              Senior Member
                              Last edited by JMysterio; 11-22-2021, 03:42 PM.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by ubiQuitous1 View Post
                                Interesting connection...Tom Jones coached now FSU Coach Bob Braman in '75 and '76 at Chamberlain High School in Tampa, FL. He left there to take over the NC State program. They won the AIAW cross country in '79 and '80 with Rollie Geiger in charge of distance runners. Rollie coached Betty Jo Springs at Bradenton Bayshore, just south of Tampa, before he came to NC State...I guess they knew each other. NC State won AIAW in Tally in 1979. They win again in 2021 with Bob Braman part of the group that brought the first NCAA XC Champs to Florida.
                                Geiger married Springs...not sure when exactly.
                                Also Jack Bacheler coached the Shea sisters prior to Rollie Geiger taking over.
                                I knew Braman when he was here at USF and had some decent XC teams and Jon Daniels winning a couple(?) of NCAA 5,000m titles.

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