NCAA XC championship

[Conor Dary]

The first of WSU's Kenyan's was John Ngeno in the fall of 1972. Coach Chaplin sent me to pick him and fellow Kenyan, hurdler Kip Ngeno, jup st Spokane Airport.

They were later followed by Josh Kimeto, Samson Kimombwa, Henry Rono and Bernard Lagat.

I remember them all well....

I once won a year's subscription to T&FN in 1995 by identifying everyone on a bridge in a photo during a Pac 8 meet from 1979 or so.

[Tuariki]

The NCAAs in those years were unbelievable with the world class East Africans at UTEP and WSU and the Brits like Nick Rose. Winning once was a big deal. There has been nothing remotely like it since.

The first of WSU's Kenyan's was John Ngeno in the fall of 1972. Coach Chaplin sent me to pick him and fellow Kenyan, hurdler Kip Ngeno, jup st Spokane Airport.

They were later followed by Josh Kimeto, Samson Kimombwa, Henry Rono and Bernard Lagat.

[Conor Dary]

Someone mentioned Nico Young as if he's taken a step back this year. XC results are not always linear from year to year. Even Craig Virgin who, from a relative standpoint, was more head and shoulders above the rest of the prep world coming into Illinois than Young is going to NAU was 10th, 12th, 1st and 3rd in his 4 years in NCAA XC competition.

The NCAAs in those years were unbelievable with the world class East Africans at UTEP and WSU and the Brits like Nick Rose. Winning once was a big deal. There has been nothing remotely like it since.

[NotDutra5]

Someone mentioned Nico Young as if he's taken a step back this year. XC results are not always linear from year to year. Even Craig Virgin who, from a relative standpoint, was more head and shoulders above the rest of the prep world coming into Illinois than Young is going to NAU was 10th, 12th, 1st and 3rd in his 4 years in NCAA XC competition.

[Steele]

Right after I posted I thought of Chapa. Agree they are in the same ballpark so to speak.

[Conor Dary]

In the 70s the NCAA was a bigger deal than the WCCC. It was really tough to win with all of the African and European runners. I was at the 1974 meet in Bloomington and quite the field. Those were great days. 3 of us hitch hiked back to Chicago in the dark and had no problem getting rides.

[DrJay]

My mentioning Chapa was not necessarily saying his run was better than Young’s, just saying there’s been at least someone in the same ballpark at that age. That 1976 race was the one where Rono ran 28:06. I seem to remember the magazine story about it describing it as a rolling course in Denton, Texas. Hard to know if it was a “faster“ or “slower“ course than Tallahassee, or similar. Quite a field that day. Rono, Kimombwa, Virgin, Lindsay, Tracy, Waigwa, O’Shaughnessy, Chapa, Munyala, Kimeli, Hunt, Bickford, Meyer, Malley, Hodge, Staynings, Marsh, and more.

[Conor Dary]

No everyone doesn't do it. Course conditions and weather make all the difference. Check the winning times at Terre Haute when the meet was held there from 2004-2011. The winner ranged from 28:41 to 30:44. Are you going to say one NCAA champ is two minutes faster than another based on they ran the same course?

The Virgin Methner comparison is very relevant because Virgin was a better hs runner than Methner yet Methner took down his record. Verzbicas was a better hs runner than Virgin but couldn't take the record down. To think you can accurately compare course times historically is guessing.

Comparing runners from different eras is a fool's errand. But he broke Virgin's legendary record which is all that matters.

[NotDutra5]

I think almost everyone would, in theory, favor the notion that xc runners who are showing extreme distress, particularly if they can't stay on their feet, "should" be removed from the field and attention focused on medical treatment.

But, in practice, not that easy to implement. Are volunteers supposed to physically grapple with a runner who is determined to advance by crawling? And the medical facilities the runner needs (IV fluid apparatus and the like) are at the finish line. How do the volunteers get the runner there?

There are hundreds of runners in any one xc race and runners collapsing before the finish in all kinds of weather conditions happens quite often in American high school and college xc. It's an unattractive part of the sport, particularly when put on national display, but not easily solved.

I realize rules have to cover a variety of situations but I'd assume someone with a medical background would (or should) be sent out there to determine if the runner has an injury and is having trouble continuing or is potentially in a heat stress situation....or perhaps another serious medical situation such as a seizure. These are certainly driven athletes but there needs to be a point in which the choice is removed from them which doesn't wait until they are unconcious. Logistically they aren't getting to the medical facilities any faster by crawling rather than maybe being carried.

My consternation was only exasperated by the comments of the announcers...one of whom probably should know better.

[NotDutra5]

Interesting connection...Tom Jones coached now FSU Coach Bob Braman in '75 and '76 at Chamberlain High School in Tampa, FL. He left there to take over the NC State program. They won the AIAW cross country in '79 and '80 with Rollie Geiger in charge of distance runners. Rollie coached Betty Jo Springs at Bradenton Bayshore, just south of Tampa, before he came to NC State...I guess they knew each other. NC State won AIAW in Tally in 1979. They win again in 2021 with Bob Braman part of the group that brought the first NCAA XC Champs to Florida.
Geiger married Springs...not sure when exactly.
Also Jack Bacheler coached the Shea sisters prior to Rollie Geiger taking over.

I knew Braman when he was here at USF and had some decent XC teams and Jon Daniels winning a couple(?) of NCAA 5,000m titles.

[JMysterio]

Of course you can compare....especially on the same course....everyone does it.

Whether Mether is as good as Virgin is irrelevant.

No everyone doesn't do it. Course conditions and weather make all the difference. Check the winning times at Terre Haute when the meet was held there from 2004-2011. The winner ranged from 28:41 to 30:44. Are you going to say one NCAA champ is two minutes faster than another based on they ran the same course?

The Virgin Methner comparison is very relevant because Virgin was a better hs runner than Methner yet Methner took down his record. Verzbicas was a better hs runner than Virgin but couldn't take the record down. To think you can accurately compare course times historically is guessing.

[player]

There was also a woman in the same distress in the woman's field. It was not that warm...particularly for here...on Saturday but the humidity may have affected a few athletes who are not accustomed to it. Everyone reacts differently.

These athletes should be pulled from the field once it is determined it isn't simply an injury. It's a race. Two things can happen. One is that they are pulled and maybe it screws up some teams score. The other is that they are not pulled and I don't think anyone wants to think about the possible result here. I thought Anderson and Tollefson's comments about the athletes toughing it out were pretty ridiculous including Tollefson's comment regarding the woman making it to the finish and "she was fine". If she was "fine" she wouldn't have been on her back and unable to get up 100m from the finish.

I think almost everyone would, in theory, favor the notion that xc runners who are showing extreme distress, particularly if they can't stay on their feet, "should" be removed from the field and attention focused on medical treatment.

But, in practice, not that easy to implement. Are volunteers supposed to physically grapple with a runner who is determined to advance by crawling? And the medical facilities the runner needs (IV fluid apparatus and the like) are at the finish line. How do the volunteers get the runner there?

There are hundreds of runners in any one xc race and runners collapsing before the finish in all kinds of weather conditions happens quite often in American high school and college xc. It's an unattractive part of the sport, particularly when put on national display, but not easily solved.

[Conor Dary]

There was also a woman in the same distress in the woman's field. It was not that warm...particularly for here...on Saturday but the humidity may have affected a few athletes who are not accustomed to it. Everyone reacts differently.

These athletes should be pulled from the field once it is determined it isn't simply an injury. It's a race. Two things can happen. One is that they are pulled and maybe it screws up some teams score. The other is that they are not pulled and I don't think anyone wants to think about the possible result here. I thought Anderson and Tollefson's comments about the athletes toughing it out were pretty ridiculous including Tollefson's comment regarding the woman making it to the finish and "she was fine". If she was "fine" she wouldn't have been on her back and unable to get up 100m from the finish.

There were a lot of stupid comments on Twitter also by the pundits about how 'gutsy' Teare was. Absolutely nuts. People don't understand how fast you can deteriorate. Salazar almost died at Falmouth, a 7 mile race in 1978. You would think these idiots would remember that.

Anyone lying on the ground during the race is not fine.

[JMysterio]

At Prenationals after my interview, Theo Quax kidded Young that he ran harder in high school than they ran at NAU so it was probably pretty high mileage.

I found this, appears their top guys do about 70 mpw during Sept and Oct but he emphasizes they don't over race. Could be the longer race distance and training for it is something Young is still adjusting to but his hs training certainly prepared him for college running.

[Conor Dary]

But you can't compare cross country times on different courses, even the same course. So many things play into it besides course difficulty. The soil could be softer, the grass longer, the pace is different depending on the leaders. Josh Methner broke Craig Virgin's state hs xc record from 50 years ago but is Methner as good as Virgin? Not right now so far. Not even close.

I never look at finish times except to see the spreads between runners.

Of course you can compare....especially on the same course....everyone does it.

Whether Mether is as good as Virgin is irrelevant.