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¶ '22 WC m4x1—Canada 37.48 WL

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  • Originally posted by DJG View Post

    if you have been reading this thread and the women’s thread you know I am not second-guessing but have been explaining what the problems are with the US relays and all relay techniques and you may have noticed there were no batons dropped in either the men’ s or women’s short relays: dropped batons are becoming very rare. Why, because there is absolutely no reason the baton should be dropped (and that includes 4x4’s, where two were dropped!).

    nice article, but nothing new to me, at least, I have had that mindset for 30 years and written almost a dozen articles
    on it, including a recent Track Coach article with Glenroy, the Canadian relay coach. Extending the go-mark a step or two in SOP for 4x1’s. At this level, that mark may be as far as 11-12 meters! Advocates of the underhand pass feel it is safer and better because it usually happens deep into the zone at greater speeds. But as the JPN and FRA teams have shown it takes too long and they are out of the zone.

    There are parallels between the upset victories by CAN and the the US women. But the CAN situation of having the same foursome for 7 years is not remotely possible for the US where it is very rare the same foursome is together the following global meet. So, we, your southern neighbor who trains your athletes for 4 years, don’t have the luxury of veterans’ experience and we like sweeping the 100 and 200 far more.

    No one down here doesn’t know that your guys “outperformed” our guys, we did see it! But if you don’t know US relay history, or GB or JAM or CAN….or relay history in general, you can’t understand why a little “angst” is justified.

    Add some butter and salt to the popcorn, a pleasure chatting with you. You did it. You won, we were outperformed again!

    Well thought out reply DJG. I give you credit for that. Understood, that at least you were not 2nd-guessing selections and choices made but many others were which made it entertaining. The World would be a boring place if we agreed on every nuance. Yes, stretching the zone is a risk/ reward endeavour and needs to suit your personnel. Canada took a chance and it paid off mainly because it came from a Team member (Brown) and they were 100% committed to it. Of course, it still takes talent to pull it off and ADG had just enough to hold off Bracy in the end.

    I acknowledge the US will always have more turnover & less stability when it comes to the relays, especially the 4x100. However, you also have an embarrassment of riches and far more choice than a Country like Canada when it comes to choosing who runs on your relay Teams so there is that. As far as relay history, I have watched the likes of Carl Lewis run anchor on relay teams that set 5 or 6 WR's in a 1o year period from 1993. The US was truly dominant then. That's what makes seeing Bailey & Co. (1996 & 1997) or Bolt (2012 - 2016) so enjoyable and brings less predictability and more excitement to this event.

    I live in a country that is all too well acquainted with being the Underdog more times than not in a sport like Track & Field. I am also familiar with the same angst and 2nd guessing your relays suffer from when our powerhouse Canadian Hockey Team gets beat occasionally.

    It seemed a little premature when Bracy celebrated a Heat win by "popping the Champagne cork" after he crossed the line. That's what I meant by overconfidence. It brings to mind the old adage, don't count your chickens before they are hatched.

    Anyways, the relays are always a fun discussion.

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    • What happened to Brommell? You also had two guys in Bednarek and Knighton who likely run a better curve than Hall.

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      • Originally posted by billychuck View Post

        To me it looked like Lyles let Coleman run upon him so consequently he didn’t get much of a flying start.
        Second leg is where USA lost it. Had they changed like the heats they win going away. Hall to Bracy notwhitstanding
        why don't people pronounce vowels anymore

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        • The last time the US hosted a major Track and Field Championship the Canadian mens 4x100 kicked their ass.

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          • Originally posted by DJG

            It is difficult to hit a grasping moving hand.
            It is difficult, yes - but a national team should practice it until they can do it well 90% of the time instead of 10% of the time.

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            • Originally posted by DJG

              That is one prescription for a cure. How about using a verbal command to start the exchange process when the passer knows he is in position to make the pass which eliminates the receiver’s hand flopping and grasping for air?

              Silent pass vs Verbal pass? Verbal x 3 for me!
              Don't they already do that ? I thought shouting "hand" was relay racing 101.

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              • I was rooting for Canada once they led. It's a lot more fun to extend the narrative.

                I understand sloppy passes but not leaving too early or too late. That aspect has always been mind boggling to me because often it's not even close. Yet the distance is a known quantity along with the incoming speed. It's not like this is a random draw and you have no idea who is coming toward you or how far they have run.

                I'm surprised analytics hasn't taken a look and come up with some new method for the timing and the exchanges. There must be something simple yet brilliant.

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                • Originally posted by DJG

                  A few Hundredths of a second now counts as “ ass-kicking”? You are better than that BB!
                  Ok I used some hyperbole lol...but it is a bit of a coincidence : )

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                  • Seriously, math on the speed/acceleration of the two runners should be one of the first things the coaching team determines. They should be able to determine almost exactly when the outgoing runner should take off, that runner should practice accelerating at the same rate every time, boom, match them up perfectly. After that the baton becomes a lot easier to deal with. It's when the baton isn't where the outgoing runner expects it to be (too close, too far to reach, uh-oh-here-comes-the-end-of-the-zone) that things get dicey.

                    Is this happening at any level? I would almost rather have an engineer with zero athletic bias running the team than a former sprinter. Make it a science project, like Borzov.

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                    • Originally posted by Steele View Post
                      Seriously, math on the speed/acceleration of the two runners should be one of the first things the coaching team determines. They should be able to determine almost exactly when the outgoing runner should take off, that runner should practice accelerating at the same rate every time, boom, match them up perfectly. After that the baton becomes a lot easier to deal with. It's when the baton isn't where the outgoing runner expects it to be (too close, too far to reach, uh-oh-here-comes-the-end-of-the-zone) that things get dicey.

                      Is this happening at any level? I would almost rather have an engineer with zero athletic bias running the team than a former sprinter. Make it a science project, like Borzov.
                      Humans aren't math equations.

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                      • Originally posted by gm View Post

                        Humans aren't math equations.
                        Boy, they sure get analyzed that way on this board. Measuring a sprinter's velocity in 10 meter increments, time between hurdles, force of foot plant on board, I could go on and on.

                        I bet we could measure and narrow down Christian Coleman's incoming velocity at the end of running 100 meters of a turn. Same goes for Noah Lyles acceleration through his first 30 meters or whatever. These don't have to be guessed at or approximated. Yes, there is a lot more to a relay, but when we watch Coleman run up Lyles back the way he did, it's a good place to start.

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                        • Concur, Steele. Of course they are humans, but like most other athletes they spend time perfecting skills. It is just as logical to put together the physics of providing optimal handoffs mixed with speed, as it is to work on the technical aspects of a long jump. Math equations are key to optimizing performance.

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                          • So, you're telling me that 3+4=7, unless 4 doesn't quite feel up to it and it decides it's 3.83 at that moment.

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