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a WR for Geb?

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: a WR for Geb?

    Ben - getting a bit condesending, aren't we.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: a WR for Geb?

    >"Geb is fantastic, but no better then some
    >others, just fortunate to have the basic
    >speed"

    And Carl Lewis was no better than
    >Myricks, could just jump a little farther.

    And
    >Bubka was no better than other polevaulters,
    >could just jump a little higher.

    And Toth
    >isn't better than most throwers - can just toss
    >it a little farther.

    And Bill Gates isn't
    >richer than me, he just has more money.

    It seems you've missed the whole logic of the facts presented. It is about realising the god given potential given to an athlete. Geb has done that, Zatopek did it also, and so have many others. Yes Geb is better in terms of being the fastest ever, but he has not bettered many others by great margins. Really if you can not understand that from the way I've presented it then your whole understanding of T&F must be very limited. I teach 12-15 year olds that understand this concept better then you have. And as I have previously said it is something that coaches have done for decades in comparing performances.

    How do we compare male v female performances: we use the same methods and find that throughout females generally 10% off the males over all distances, so is KK a hell of a lot better athlete than Paula R: no not all all, even though he is 10 minutes faster. In fact you will see if you "get this" that the mens marathon WR is slower by a few minutes then it could be.

    Research some more, do some basic maths, it will help your athletes, yourself or whoever your involved with athletically a whole lot - if not just your understanding.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: a WR for Geb?

    >>There are plenty of
    >reasons that Geb has more advantages. But if you
    >mention some of them, or 'speculate', they'll
    >yank your post. >>


    You want to "speculate" go to one of the boards where the zit-faces hang out. Thank god this one sticks to facts.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: a WR for Geb?

    "Geb is fantastic, but no better then some others, just fortunate to have the basic speed"

    And Carl Lewis was no better than Myricks, could just jump a little farther.

    And Bubka was no better than other polevaulters, could just jump a little higher.

    And Toth isn't better than most throwers - can just toss it a little farther.

    And Bill Gates isn't richer than me, he just has more money.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: a WR for Geb?

    Not sure I follow the reasoning Ben.
    >Geb is marginally better than Zatopek? No way.
    >Geb is faster over 10k because he's faster over
    >r 1500m, 3000m, and 5000m? True. Marginally
    >faster? False. Sh*tloads faster - True. Geb is
    >in a different class - no disrespect to the great
    >Zatopek.

    Darn right he is load faster, but so he should be because he is equally loads faster over those shorter distances.
    Geb's class is only different because of his basic speed: he has not developed an unusually remarkbale endurance capacity beyond what Zatopek developed: Zatopek ran 29:17/10k and 14:06/5k at the same OG's. Geb's PB's (WR's) of 26:22 & 12:39 are not as good a demonstration of endurance. From Zatopek himself:
    "No, no...I was not very talented. My basic speed was low."
    He knew what was going on back then, you are able to see it now. Don't forget he predicted the 10k should be loads (minutes) faster as soon as someone with more basic speed attacked it.

    Geb is fantastic, but no better then some others, just fortunate to have the basic speed: Imagine if he developed the stamina of Ron Clark. I think Geb has maximised his potential give or take 10s, which is truly a great achievement. He can't break 26:00, but there is a couple around and coming through that can/should.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: a WR for Geb?

    On
    >the other hand, Zatopek never had the advantage
    >of running on the quality of tracks that Geb has.
    >

    There are probably a lot more reasons why
    >comparing is an art not a science, but its fun
    >anyway.

    There are plenty of reasons that Geb has more advantages. But if you mention some of them, or 'speculate', they'll yank your post.

    Leave a comment:


  • jlanza
    replied
    Re: a WR for Geb?

    In my
    >opinion, however, the ability to pull off the
    >5/10 double gold (or in Zatopek's case, a triple
    >gold with the marathon) WITHIN THE SHORT SPAN OF
    >A SINGLE OLYMPIAD OR WC is a key element of
    >greatness. In Viren's case, he recorded a
    >"double-double" (5/10 in '72 and '76, although
    >there was the African nations' boycott in
    >'76).

    I think an important point here is that Geb's competition in both races was and is a lot deeper than was Zatopek's. There were not the numbers of runners who could run so close to the records then as there are now. So for Geb to win both in one Games he would have had much better competition in both races.

    On the other hand, Zatopek never had the advantage of running on the quality of tracks that Geb has.

    There are probably a lot more reasons why comparing is an art not a science, but its fun anyway.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: a WR for Geb?

    regardless of geb not getting the 5k/10k double gold at the og's or wc's, he's still the greatest runner ever in both of those events.

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  • Alan
    replied
    Re: a WR for Geb?

    "Re: Geb's "failure" to win a 5/10 double. It's clear to me that he would have been a shoo-in in Atlanta had the track not been so hard, forcing him to pull out of the 5 after the 10. He's still complaining about it to this day..."

    Athletes of Geb's era have had not only the Olympics, but World Championships every two years, to make their mark on the sport. That would have given Geb numerous chances to pull off a 5/10 double (1993, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2003). Yet he has NOT DONE IT ONCE.

    Geb holds the world record at 5,000, so clearly he should be capable of winning a 5,000 at an Olympics or WC. Why hasn't he?

    One could theorize that the 10,000 (which, as best I can recall, has always been run first in these meets) drains Geb to the point where he can't win a 5,000 (and he seems to have stopped trying in more recent years).

    Give Geb unlimited time to prepare for a single race -- 5,000 or 10,000 -- and he's the best. No question.

    In my opinion, however, the ability to pull off the 5/10 double gold (or in Zatopek's case, a triple gold with the marathon) WITHIN THE SHORT SPAN OF A SINGLE OLYMPIAD OR WC is a key element of greatness. In Viren's case, he recorded a "double-double" (5/10 in '72 and '76, although there was the African nations' boycott in '76).

    Don't get me wrong -- Geb is an incredible superstar, and I'm willing to declare him the greatest 10,000-meter runner of all-time. But, given the flaw of his I've identified above, I cannot call him the greatest OVERALL distance runner of all time.

    Leave a comment:


  • Powell
    replied
    Re: a WR for Geb?

    Like someone has said already - the competition in Nurmi's and Zatopek's days just wasn't the same. Imagine what would happen if the Africans had never entered the scene... Dieter Baumann (or maybe even Bob Kennedy) would be considered one of the greatest long-distance runners of all time, in the same category as Nurmi and Zatopek. Had Kenyan and Ethiopian been around in the 1920s, they might have been beating the Finns just as regularly as the Africans in the last 20 years have been doing.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: a WR for Geb?

    "It is not difficult at all. All you do is determine how close they got to their potential by calculating how they converted their basic speed over the lesser distances to the longer ones. And from doing that you will see that Geb is only marginally better then Zatopek: He is a hell of a lot faster over 10k simply because he is a hell of a lot faster over 1500m, 3k, 5k."

    Not sure I follow the reasoning Ben. Geb is marginally better than Zatopek? No way. Geb is faster over 10k because he's faster over 1500m, 3000m, and 5000m? True. Marginally faster? False. Sh*tloads faster - True. Geb is in a different class - no disrespect to the great Zatopek.

    Leave a comment:


  • DentyCracker
    replied
    Re: a WR for Geb?

    I was wondering recently if they couldn't just make the 100m straight harder

    Leave a comment:


  • Grazer
    replied
    Re: a WR for Geb?

    Re: Geb's "failure" to win a 5/10 double. It's clear to me that he would have been a shoo-in in Atlanta had the track not been so hard, forcing him to pull out of the 5 after the 10. He's still complaining about it to this day, and I'm sure that's one of the reasons that we're not seeing as many super-fast tracks.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: a WR for Geb?

    >I know that it is difficult/impossible to compare
    >athletes from different eras, but as Sieg
    >Lindstrom and I discussed in Paris, there is no
    >doubt in our minds that if Geb simply ran an easy
    >4 miles a day, he still could've easily beaten
    >Nurmi and Zatopek back in their day. Comparing
    >Nurmi or Zatopek to Geb? Forget it. Geb is in a
    >whole different class.

    It is not difficult at all. All you do is determine how close they got to their potential by calculating how they converted their basic speed over the lesser distances to the longer ones. And from doing that you will see that Geb is only marginally better then Zatopek: He is a hell of a lot faster over 10k simply because he is a hell of a lot faster over 1500m, 3k, 5k. This is really quite simply stuff that I have seen many coaches from swimming, cycling and running do for many years. So yes it is definately possible to compare athlets of different eras, but further it is how you judge current performances: If you want an American to run 26:30 for 10k he will have to be able to run the necessary times over the shorter distances, if he can achieve those times and can not achieve 10k time then what is the excuse? Speed is almost everything, stamina is the rest.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: a WR for Geb?

    I voted "no" but am VERY impressed with the 26:29.2 that Geb did run...as Dan Lilot has said--this man is a remarkably gifted runner who loves what he does.

    Leave a comment:

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