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  • #31
    Re: a WR for Geb?

    In my
    >opinion, however, the ability to pull off the
    >5/10 double gold (or in Zatopek's case, a triple
    >gold with the marathon) WITHIN THE SHORT SPAN OF
    >A SINGLE OLYMPIAD OR WC is a key element of
    >greatness. In Viren's case, he recorded a
    >"double-double" (5/10 in '72 and '76, although
    >there was the African nations' boycott in
    >'76).

    I think an important point here is that Geb's competition in both races was and is a lot deeper than was Zatopek's. There were not the numbers of runners who could run so close to the records then as there are now. So for Geb to win both in one Games he would have had much better competition in both races.

    On the other hand, Zatopek never had the advantage of running on the quality of tracks that Geb has.

    There are probably a lot more reasons why comparing is an art not a science, but its fun anyway.
    Joe Lanzalotto

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: a WR for Geb?

      On
      >the other hand, Zatopek never had the advantage
      >of running on the quality of tracks that Geb has.
      >

      There are probably a lot more reasons why
      >comparing is an art not a science, but its fun
      >anyway.

      There are plenty of reasons that Geb has more advantages. But if you mention some of them, or 'speculate', they'll yank your post.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: a WR for Geb?

        Not sure I follow the reasoning Ben.
        >Geb is marginally better than Zatopek? No way.
        >Geb is faster over 10k because he's faster over
        >r 1500m, 3000m, and 5000m? True. Marginally
        >faster? False. Sh*tloads faster - True. Geb is
        >in a different class - no disrespect to the great
        >Zatopek.

        Darn right he is load faster, but so he should be because he is equally loads faster over those shorter distances.
        Geb's class is only different because of his basic speed: he has not developed an unusually remarkbale endurance capacity beyond what Zatopek developed: Zatopek ran 29:17/10k and 14:06/5k at the same OG's. Geb's PB's (WR's) of 26:22 & 12:39 are not as good a demonstration of endurance. From Zatopek himself:
        "No, no...I was not very talented. My basic speed was low."
        He knew what was going on back then, you are able to see it now. Don't forget he predicted the 10k should be loads (minutes) faster as soon as someone with more basic speed attacked it.

        Geb is fantastic, but no better then some others, just fortunate to have the basic speed: Imagine if he developed the stamina of Ron Clark. I think Geb has maximised his potential give or take 10s, which is truly a great achievement. He can't break 26:00, but there is a couple around and coming through that can/should.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: a WR for Geb?

          "Geb is fantastic, but no better then some others, just fortunate to have the basic speed"

          And Carl Lewis was no better than Myricks, could just jump a little farther.

          And Bubka was no better than other polevaulters, could just jump a little higher.

          And Toth isn't better than most throwers - can just toss it a little farther.

          And Bill Gates isn't richer than me, he just has more money.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: a WR for Geb?

            >>There are plenty of
            >reasons that Geb has more advantages. But if you
            >mention some of them, or 'speculate', they'll
            >yank your post. >>


            You want to "speculate" go to one of the boards where the zit-faces hang out. Thank god this one sticks to facts.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: a WR for Geb?

              >"Geb is fantastic, but no better then some
              >others, just fortunate to have the basic
              >speed"

              And Carl Lewis was no better than
              >Myricks, could just jump a little farther.

              And
              >Bubka was no better than other polevaulters,
              >could just jump a little higher.

              And Toth
              >isn't better than most throwers - can just toss
              >it a little farther.

              And Bill Gates isn't
              >richer than me, he just has more money.

              It seems you've missed the whole logic of the facts presented. It is about realising the god given potential given to an athlete. Geb has done that, Zatopek did it also, and so have many others. Yes Geb is better in terms of being the fastest ever, but he has not bettered many others by great margins. Really if you can not understand that from the way I've presented it then your whole understanding of T&F must be very limited. I teach 12-15 year olds that understand this concept better then you have. And as I have previously said it is something that coaches have done for decades in comparing performances.

              How do we compare male v female performances: we use the same methods and find that throughout females generally 10% off the males over all distances, so is KK a hell of a lot better athlete than Paula R: no not all all, even though he is 10 minutes faster. In fact you will see if you "get this" that the mens marathon WR is slower by a few minutes then it could be.

              Research some more, do some basic maths, it will help your athletes, yourself or whoever your involved with athletically a whole lot - if not just your understanding.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: a WR for Geb?

                Ben - getting a bit condesending, aren't we.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: a WR for Geb?

                  Ben -

                  "Really if you can not understand that from the way I've presented it then your whole understanding of T&F must be very limited. I teach 12-15 year olds that understand this concept better then you have "

                  Ben - OK, you say you are a teacher, so teach me...I don't understand your logic (maybe I'm the only one) - maybe I'm missing something...

                  My initial posting was simply supporting DL's contention that Geb could retire as the greatest ever - someone mentioned Zapopek and Nurmi - I said they didn't have to race the Africans, etc.

                  You wrote that "Zatopek ran 29:17/10k and 14:06/5k at the same OG's. Geb's PB's (WR's) of 26:22 & 12:39 are not as good a demonstration of endurance".
                  I don't follow.

                  You also wrote that to compare athletes from different eras "All you do is determine how close they got to their potential by calculating how they converted their basic speed over the lesser distances to the longer ones".
                  Again, I don't follow. Surly your not saying that Zatopek is on the same level as Geb because Zatopek was in fact SLOWER than Geb over the slower distances but SLOWER to a lesser degree as the distances increased. This is what I read your "logic" as and I must have been wrong.

                  Finally, you wrote "He (Geb) can't break 26:00 but there is a couple around and coming thru that can/should break 26:00".
                  Using your math you noted above (that you ask me to work on) - explain who these people are (names) and how you reach this conclusion - then maybe I will understand your reasoning.

                  Thanks - Steve

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: a WR for Geb?

                    You
                    >wrote that "Zatopek ran 29:17/10k and 14:06/5k
                    >at the same OG's. Geb's PB's (WR's) of 26:22 &
                    >12:39 are not as good a demonstration of
                    >endurance".
                    I don't follow.

                    Firstly I sincerely apologise if I have come accross as condecending - I am writing in good faith and with a smile on my face as I write, I have misunderstood others sentiment as well I guess. Sorry. Here is some further info:

                    Emile's speeds:
                    14:06/5k = 5.91metres/second
                    29:17/10k = 5.69metres/second
                    He held 96.30% of his 5k speed for 10k.

                    Haile's speeds:
                    12:39/5k = 6.59metres/second
                    26:22/10k = 6.32metres/second
                    He held 95.95% of his 5k speed for 10k.

                    So Zatopek in this occasion has the ability to hold his 5k speed (% thereof) for 10k slightly better then Gabrselassie

                    You also wrote
                    >that to compare athletes from different eras
                    >"All you do is determine how close they got to
                    >their potential by calculating how they converted
                    >their basic speed over the lesser distances to
                    >the longer ones".
                    Again, I don't follow. Surly
                    >your not saying that Zatopek is on the same level
                    >as Geb because Zatopek was in fact SLOWER than
                    >Geb over the slower distances but SLOWER to a
                    >lesser degree as the distances increased. This
                    >is what I read your "logic" as and I must have
                    >been wrong.

                    You're in the right direction. Each athlete has a speed from which they build stamina; the ability to hold a greater percentage of that speed as possible over a given distance. I am saying that Zatopek is on the same level as Gebrselassie because both men held roughly the same percentages of their basic speed at each given increase in distance. So they developed the same endurance/stamina capacity. (Smart athletes work very hard at developing their speed and stamina).

                    Finally, you wrote "He (Geb)
                    >can't break 26:00 but there is a couple around
                    >and coming thru that can/should break
                    >26:00".
                    Using your math you noted above (that
                    >you ask me to work on) - explain who these people
                    >are (names) and how you reach this conclusion -
                    >then maybe I will understand your
                    >reasoning.

                    Gebrselassie again:
                    3:32/1500m = 7.08metres/second
                    26:22/10k = 6.32metres/second
                    He can hold 89.34% of his 1500m speed over 10k

                    IF an athlete who can run 3:30/1500m attacks the 10k record
                    3:29/1500m = 7.18metres/second IF they develop the stamina of Gebrselassie (or Zatopek)
                    26:00/10k = 6.41metres/second
                    That is based on being able to hold 89.34% of their 1500m speed over 10k.

                    As more and more athletes come through the various systems there will be some that run 3:28 or faster for 1500m that decide to take on 10k. This is progression. This may take years or a decade - but will definately happen.

                    For the Marathon:
                    Radcliffe:
                    30:01/10k = 5.55metres/second
                    2:15:25/42.195k = 5.19metres/second
                    93.53% of 10k speed maintained for marathon.

                    ANY MALE WHO ATTACKS THE MARATHON WORLD RECORD WHO CAN RUN
                    27:00/10k = 6.17metres/second
                    AND DEVELOPS THE STAMINA OF RADCLIFFE
                    2:01:48/42.195K = 5.77metres/kilometre
                    93.53% of 10k speed maintained for marathon.

                    Yes I am saying this is possible. Now how to do it? One problem is how to get a pace group (Radcliffe had male pacesetters). Another problem is having the vision to do it, it would take an effort and very dedicated attention; but the standard has been set by Radcliffe, she is ahead of the blokes on this one.

                    Running coaches that have written more on this are Frank Horwill, Tony Benson and Arthur Lydiard (Lydiard said over a decade ago he was waiting for someone with the required speed to go sub 1:40/800m claiming that there were athletes capable of it back then but none had developed the stamina).

                    Hope this helps.

                    All this aside sorry for getting off track and causing so much confusion and angst.

                    Sincerely
                    Ben

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: a WR for Geb?

                      Ben -

                      you wrote:

                      Emile's speeds:
                      14:06/5k = 5.91metres/second
                      29:17/10k = 5.69metres/second
                      He held 96.30% of his 5k speed for 10k.

                      Haile's speeds:
                      12:39/5k = 6.59metres/second
                      26:22/10k = 6.32metres/second
                      He held 95.95% of his 5k speed for 10k.

                      So Zatopek in this occasion has the ability to hold his 5k speed (% thereof) for 10k slightly better then Gabrselassie.
                      ..................................

                      I guess I'm not all that impressed with ability to hold speed. Brad Hauser ran 13:27.31 and 27:58.02 for a 96.22 score (ahead of Geb) and Keith Dowling ran 13:37 and 28:15 for a 96.44 score (ahead of both Geb and Zatopek). I'm sure I could find even better examples.

                      Whether Zatopek has better ratios than Geb in some obscure math model doesn't mean much. It could mean that Zatopek never ran to his potential in a 5k, whereas Geb has busted good times in both.

                      Also, it's not completely accurate to assume that a 3:29 1500 guy will simply want to "try" a 10,000. It's a common fallacy that runners fast a shorter distances can simply "step up" in distance and carry their speed. Biomechanics in running style, physiology, and many other factors essentially determine where the athlete will fall distance-wise. Note that MJ never tried an 800m, despite many believing he could run 1:43ish - he knew where his limits were. Same with El G, great as he is (3:26!) you will not likely see him approach 12:39. Same reason Kipketer can run 1:41 but can't go through in 1:50 and hold on in a 1500m - the same physical advantages that allow him to run 1:41 actually are a disadvantage at 1500m.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: a WR for Geb?

                        > Same with El G, great as he is (3:26!)
                        > you will not likely see him approach 12:39.

                        I don't see why not since his first serious attempt at the distance as a senior resulted in a 12:50 (7th fastest performer and 13th fastest performance ever) and in a "tactical" race at the WC he ran 12:52. I'd say that is already "approaching" 12:39, and it would not surprise me that with a little more experience the approach might be somewhat closer. But I could be wrong. Maybe in just three 5k races he has already shown his maximum potential.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: a WR for Geb?

                          It's just foolish to way that El G could never approach 12:39. It just depends on what we mean by "approach." I have no doubt he could run 12:45 or so, and think that sub-12:40 is certainly conceivable under perfect conditions.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: a WR for Geb?

                            Actually John you're probably right - bad example. As you said, he is at 12:50 now, so 10 seconds ain't much. 10 lashings to me on that one

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: a WR for Geb?

                              Back to the original topic...

                              I read today (on some other web site):

                              "I can still do it," said the smiling Gebrselassie, who confirmed that he will contest the event at the Olympic Games next summer in Athens. Tightness in his calf over the last six laps kept him from challenging his 26:22.75 world record set in 1998, but he said the record can and will be broken soon. "I still have time to break it."

                              Does anyone know if he is planning another 10k record attempt this year?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: a WR for Geb?

                                "Back to the original topic...

                                I read today (on some other web site):

                                "I can still do it," said the smiling Gebrselassie, who confirmed that he will contest the event at the Olympic Games next summer in Athens. Tightness in his calf over the last six laps kept him from challenging his 26:22.75 world record set in 1998, but he said the record can and will be broken soon. "I still have time to break it."

                                Does anyone know if he is planning another 10k record attempt this year?"

                                I don't know exactly what his plans are, but I seriously doubt he will try it again this year.

                                It has been a long season and he has just run 2 10k races within one week of each other (the first one fast and the second one extremely fast).

                                Add in the fact that you can't really run too many 10k races in a single season (even if they are spaced far apart), and I think we can safely say that he won't try again in 2003.

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