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a WR for Geb?

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  • #46
    Re: a WR for Geb?

    I guess I'm not all that impressed with ability
    >to hold speed. Brad Hauser ran 13:27.31 and
    >27:58.02 for a 96.22 score (ahead of Geb) and
    >Keith Dowling ran 13:37 and 28:15 for a 96.44
    >score (ahead of both Geb and Zatopek). I'm sure
    >I could find even better examples.

    That is exactly the point. Well done, find the examples, compare athletes, go for it. This is what I am talking about. Bob Kennedy is another that springs to mind that had (maybe still has) excellent stamina. The challenge for the athlete/coach is to get the right mix between speed and stamina. Distance running is all about maintaining speed over distance. What impresses the different observers is up to individual taste. I am more impressed with someone that maximises their potential over their chosen distance regardless of the time. (I hold Radcliffes WR as so much better then the Men's for this reason). However you seem to come from the angle of the fastest person over that distance impresses - which is fine, I too love seeing super fast times.

    Whether
    >Zatopek has better ratios than Geb in some
    >obscure math model doesn't mean much. It could
    >mean that Zatopek never ran to his potential in a
    >5k, whereas Geb has busted good times in
    >both.

    It is not an obscure maths model. It is based on my research of the greatest distances coaches of all time across various sports such as those I've already mentioned. I have not introduced anything new - I've never seen it presented as I did but it is not my model. It does mean a lot. It shows the way forward. It allows for athletes to see how they are going. It allows for comparisons that you just made, pehaps Zatopek did not maximise his 5k, perhaps he cruised the 5k. But if you apply this model to athlete's performances you will start to see a lot of significant trends.

    Also, it's not completely accurate to
    >assume that a 3:29 1500 guy will simply want to
    >"try" a 10,000. It's a common fallacy that
    >runners fast a shorter distances can simply
    >"step up" in distance and carry their speed.
    >Biomechanics in running style, physiology, and
    >many other factors essentially determine where
    >the athlete will fall distance-wise. Note that
    >MJ never tried an 800m, despite many believing
    >he could run 1:43ish - he knew where his limits
    >were. Same with El G, great as he is (3:26!)
    >you will not likely see him approach 12:39.
    >Same reason Kipketer can run 1:41 but can't go
    >o through in 1:50 and hold on in a 1500m - the
    >same physical advantages that allow him to run
    >1:41 actually are a disadvantage at 1500m.

    Yes right again. I'm excited now we are on the same train. An athlete like El G focussing on the 5k will lose an ability to hold his 3:26, but he will stil hold a 3:28, which will still put him in good stead for the 5k WR.

    Yes trying to get middle distance speed and long distance speed simultaneuosly will mean a compromise, the athlete focusses on his target whilst still trying to reach bests over the other. There will come an athlete that can run a 3:29/1500m whilst focussing on the 10k That same athlete, should they choose - could run 3:27 or below, but then would lose a bit of ability over 10k.

    Just as the 4min/mile was the greatest barrier in distance running half a century ago, these days someone who can run much faster finds that there place is in the 10k or Marathon. in the future someone who busts out a 3:29/1500m will find that there place is in the 10k/Marathon.

    David Culbert put it well saying everyone starts at 100m and just moves up until their speed and stamina combine to give them the best result or meets their goals.

    Can Geb break Marathon WR, well perhaps his training history has been detrimental for Marathon. BUT the athlete coming through in a few years time that sees they will not have a great 1500m so moves to 3k, sees that they are a bit off he pace at 3-5k so goes to 10k and sees that are 30seconds off WR pace for 10k so targets the Marathon from an early age and focusses on that WR - well I can't wait.

    This is also another reason why Juniors should not specialise at a distance until they have reached maturity. As you said often focussing on one event can be detrimental to another.

    Thanks El supremo,
    I'm finished now
    Ben

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: a WR for Geb?

      >>Add in the fact that you
      >can't really run too many 10k races in a single
      >season (even if they are spaced far apart), and I
      >think we can safely say that he won't try again
      >in 2003.>>

      And, for your viewing pleasure, allow us to introduc to you the seasonal record of one Seppo Tuominen, who ranked No. 10 in the world in 1971. And lest his times not impress you too much, note that he was just 30 seconds off the world lead and was 11th on the yearly list.

      May 25--28:45.4
      June 12--28:46.4
      June 22--28:17.2
      June 30--29:03.8
      July 1--28:19.2
      July 23--28:37.2
      August 10--28:18.0
      August 28--29:01.6
      September 3--28:23.0
      September 11--28:36.8
      September 18--29:07.8
      September 22--29:08.2

      (and somewhere in there found the time to run 13:34.8 as well)

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: a WR for Geb?

        ">>Add in the fact that you
        >can't really run too many 10k races in a single
        >season (even if they are spaced far apart), and I
        >think we can safely say that he won't try again
        >in 2003.>>

        And, for your viewing pleasure, allow us to introduc to you the seasonal record of one Seppo Tuominen, who ranked No. 10 in the world in 1971. And lest his times not impress you too much, note that he was just 30 seconds off the world lead and was 11th on the yearly list.

        May 25--28:45.4
        June 12--28:46.4
        June 22--28:17.2
        June 30--29:03.8
        July 1--28:19.2
        July 23--28:37.2
        August 10--28:18.0
        August 28--29:01.6
        September 3--28:23.0
        September 11--28:36.8
        September 18--29:07.8
        September 22--29:08.2

        (and somewhere in there found the time to run 13:34.8 as well)"

        That's pretty absurd. Remarkable that he didn't end up with stress fractures in every bone in his legs.

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: a WR for Geb?

          >(and
          >somewhere in there found the time to run 13:34.8
          >as well)

          What was his lifetime pb for both events? Did he leave his good race on the table?

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: a WR for Geb?

            Could you even find 12 10,000s in a year where an athlete could run sub 28min (approximately the same level of competition that Tuominen was running at in '71)?

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: a WR for Geb?

              There are dozens of Kenyans on the road circuit nowadays who run more 10K's a year than that, no problem.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: a WR for Geb?

                And Carl Lewis was no better
                >than
                >Myricks, could just jump a little
                >farther.

                Unless you count an eyeballed estimate for 30+ feet at Indianapolis, Lewis never jumped farther than Myricks.

                Comment

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