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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: a WR for Geb?

    And Carl Lewis was no better
    >than
    >Myricks, could just jump a little
    >farther.

    Unless you count an eyeballed estimate for 30+ feet at Indianapolis, Lewis never jumped farther than Myricks.

    Leave a comment:


  • dl
    replied
    Re: a WR for Geb?

    There are dozens of Kenyans on the road circuit nowadays who run more 10K's a year than that, no problem.

    Leave a comment:


  • bubba
    replied
    Re: a WR for Geb?

    Could you even find 12 10,000s in a year where an athlete could run sub 28min (approximately the same level of competition that Tuominen was running at in '71)?

    Leave a comment:


  • MJD
    replied
    Re: a WR for Geb?

    >(and
    >somewhere in there found the time to run 13:34.8
    >as well)

    What was his lifetime pb for both events? Did he leave his good race on the table?

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: a WR for Geb?

    ">>Add in the fact that you
    >can't really run too many 10k races in a single
    >season (even if they are spaced far apart), and I
    >think we can safely say that he won't try again
    >in 2003.>>

    And, for your viewing pleasure, allow us to introduc to you the seasonal record of one Seppo Tuominen, who ranked No. 10 in the world in 1971. And lest his times not impress you too much, note that he was just 30 seconds off the world lead and was 11th on the yearly list.

    May 25--28:45.4
    June 12--28:46.4
    June 22--28:17.2
    June 30--29:03.8
    July 1--28:19.2
    July 23--28:37.2
    August 10--28:18.0
    August 28--29:01.6
    September 3--28:23.0
    September 11--28:36.8
    September 18--29:07.8
    September 22--29:08.2

    (and somewhere in there found the time to run 13:34.8 as well)"

    That's pretty absurd. Remarkable that he didn't end up with stress fractures in every bone in his legs.

    Leave a comment:


  • gh
    replied
    Re: a WR for Geb?

    >>Add in the fact that you
    >can't really run too many 10k races in a single
    >season (even if they are spaced far apart), and I
    >think we can safely say that he won't try again
    >in 2003.>>

    And, for your viewing pleasure, allow us to introduc to you the seasonal record of one Seppo Tuominen, who ranked No. 10 in the world in 1971. And lest his times not impress you too much, note that he was just 30 seconds off the world lead and was 11th on the yearly list.

    May 25--28:45.4
    June 12--28:46.4
    June 22--28:17.2
    June 30--29:03.8
    July 1--28:19.2
    July 23--28:37.2
    August 10--28:18.0
    August 28--29:01.6
    September 3--28:23.0
    September 11--28:36.8
    September 18--29:07.8
    September 22--29:08.2

    (and somewhere in there found the time to run 13:34.8 as well)

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: a WR for Geb?

    I guess I'm not all that impressed with ability
    >to hold speed. Brad Hauser ran 13:27.31 and
    >27:58.02 for a 96.22 score (ahead of Geb) and
    >Keith Dowling ran 13:37 and 28:15 for a 96.44
    >score (ahead of both Geb and Zatopek). I'm sure
    >I could find even better examples.

    That is exactly the point. Well done, find the examples, compare athletes, go for it. This is what I am talking about. Bob Kennedy is another that springs to mind that had (maybe still has) excellent stamina. The challenge for the athlete/coach is to get the right mix between speed and stamina. Distance running is all about maintaining speed over distance. What impresses the different observers is up to individual taste. I am more impressed with someone that maximises their potential over their chosen distance regardless of the time. (I hold Radcliffes WR as so much better then the Men's for this reason). However you seem to come from the angle of the fastest person over that distance impresses - which is fine, I too love seeing super fast times.

    Whether
    >Zatopek has better ratios than Geb in some
    >obscure math model doesn't mean much. It could
    >mean that Zatopek never ran to his potential in a
    >5k, whereas Geb has busted good times in
    >both.

    It is not an obscure maths model. It is based on my research of the greatest distances coaches of all time across various sports such as those I've already mentioned. I have not introduced anything new - I've never seen it presented as I did but it is not my model. It does mean a lot. It shows the way forward. It allows for athletes to see how they are going. It allows for comparisons that you just made, pehaps Zatopek did not maximise his 5k, perhaps he cruised the 5k. But if you apply this model to athlete's performances you will start to see a lot of significant trends.

    Also, it's not completely accurate to
    >assume that a 3:29 1500 guy will simply want to
    >"try" a 10,000. It's a common fallacy that
    >runners fast a shorter distances can simply
    >"step up" in distance and carry their speed.
    >Biomechanics in running style, physiology, and
    >many other factors essentially determine where
    >the athlete will fall distance-wise. Note that
    >MJ never tried an 800m, despite many believing
    >he could run 1:43ish - he knew where his limits
    >were. Same with El G, great as he is (3:26!)
    >you will not likely see him approach 12:39.
    >Same reason Kipketer can run 1:41 but can't go
    >o through in 1:50 and hold on in a 1500m - the
    >same physical advantages that allow him to run
    >1:41 actually are a disadvantage at 1500m.

    Yes right again. I'm excited now we are on the same train. An athlete like El G focussing on the 5k will lose an ability to hold his 3:26, but he will stil hold a 3:28, which will still put him in good stead for the 5k WR.

    Yes trying to get middle distance speed and long distance speed simultaneuosly will mean a compromise, the athlete focusses on his target whilst still trying to reach bests over the other. There will come an athlete that can run a 3:29/1500m whilst focussing on the 10k That same athlete, should they choose - could run 3:27 or below, but then would lose a bit of ability over 10k.

    Just as the 4min/mile was the greatest barrier in distance running half a century ago, these days someone who can run much faster finds that there place is in the 10k or Marathon. in the future someone who busts out a 3:29/1500m will find that there place is in the 10k/Marathon.

    David Culbert put it well saying everyone starts at 100m and just moves up until their speed and stamina combine to give them the best result or meets their goals.

    Can Geb break Marathon WR, well perhaps his training history has been detrimental for Marathon. BUT the athlete coming through in a few years time that sees they will not have a great 1500m so moves to 3k, sees that they are a bit off he pace at 3-5k so goes to 10k and sees that are 30seconds off WR pace for 10k so targets the Marathon from an early age and focusses on that WR - well I can't wait.

    This is also another reason why Juniors should not specialise at a distance until they have reached maturity. As you said often focussing on one event can be detrimental to another.

    Thanks El supremo,
    I'm finished now
    Ben

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: a WR for Geb?

    "Back to the original topic...

    I read today (on some other web site):

    "I can still do it," said the smiling Gebrselassie, who confirmed that he will contest the event at the Olympic Games next summer in Athens. Tightness in his calf over the last six laps kept him from challenging his 26:22.75 world record set in 1998, but he said the record can and will be broken soon. "I still have time to break it."

    Does anyone know if he is planning another 10k record attempt this year?"

    I don't know exactly what his plans are, but I seriously doubt he will try it again this year.

    It has been a long season and he has just run 2 10k races within one week of each other (the first one fast and the second one extremely fast).

    Add in the fact that you can't really run too many 10k races in a single season (even if they are spaced far apart), and I think we can safely say that he won't try again in 2003.

    Leave a comment:


  • jweaton
    replied
    Re: a WR for Geb?

    Back to the original topic...

    I read today (on some other web site):

    "I can still do it," said the smiling Gebrselassie, who confirmed that he will contest the event at the Olympic Games next summer in Athens. Tightness in his calf over the last six laps kept him from challenging his 26:22.75 world record set in 1998, but he said the record can and will be broken soon. "I still have time to break it."

    Does anyone know if he is planning another 10k record attempt this year?

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: a WR for Geb?

    Actually John you're probably right - bad example. As you said, he is at 12:50 now, so 10 seconds ain't much. 10 lashings to me on that one

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: a WR for Geb?

    It's just foolish to way that El G could never approach 12:39. It just depends on what we mean by "approach." I have no doubt he could run 12:45 or so, and think that sub-12:40 is certainly conceivable under perfect conditions.

    Leave a comment:


  • jweaton
    replied
    Re: a WR for Geb?

    > Same with El G, great as he is (3:26!)
    > you will not likely see him approach 12:39.

    I don't see why not since his first serious attempt at the distance as a senior resulted in a 12:50 (7th fastest performer and 13th fastest performance ever) and in a "tactical" race at the WC he ran 12:52. I'd say that is already "approaching" 12:39, and it would not surprise me that with a little more experience the approach might be somewhat closer. But I could be wrong. Maybe in just three 5k races he has already shown his maximum potential.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: a WR for Geb?

    Ben -

    you wrote:

    Emile's speeds:
    14:06/5k = 5.91metres/second
    29:17/10k = 5.69metres/second
    He held 96.30% of his 5k speed for 10k.

    Haile's speeds:
    12:39/5k = 6.59metres/second
    26:22/10k = 6.32metres/second
    He held 95.95% of his 5k speed for 10k.

    So Zatopek in this occasion has the ability to hold his 5k speed (% thereof) for 10k slightly better then Gabrselassie.
    ..................................

    I guess I'm not all that impressed with ability to hold speed. Brad Hauser ran 13:27.31 and 27:58.02 for a 96.22 score (ahead of Geb) and Keith Dowling ran 13:37 and 28:15 for a 96.44 score (ahead of both Geb and Zatopek). I'm sure I could find even better examples.

    Whether Zatopek has better ratios than Geb in some obscure math model doesn't mean much. It could mean that Zatopek never ran to his potential in a 5k, whereas Geb has busted good times in both.

    Also, it's not completely accurate to assume that a 3:29 1500 guy will simply want to "try" a 10,000. It's a common fallacy that runners fast a shorter distances can simply "step up" in distance and carry their speed. Biomechanics in running style, physiology, and many other factors essentially determine where the athlete will fall distance-wise. Note that MJ never tried an 800m, despite many believing he could run 1:43ish - he knew where his limits were. Same with El G, great as he is (3:26!) you will not likely see him approach 12:39. Same reason Kipketer can run 1:41 but can't go through in 1:50 and hold on in a 1500m - the same physical advantages that allow him to run 1:41 actually are a disadvantage at 1500m.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: a WR for Geb?

    You
    >wrote that "Zatopek ran 29:17/10k and 14:06/5k
    >at the same OG's. Geb's PB's (WR's) of 26:22 &
    >12:39 are not as good a demonstration of
    >endurance".
    I don't follow.

    Firstly I sincerely apologise if I have come accross as condecending - I am writing in good faith and with a smile on my face as I write, I have misunderstood others sentiment as well I guess. Sorry. Here is some further info:

    Emile's speeds:
    14:06/5k = 5.91metres/second
    29:17/10k = 5.69metres/second
    He held 96.30% of his 5k speed for 10k.

    Haile's speeds:
    12:39/5k = 6.59metres/second
    26:22/10k = 6.32metres/second
    He held 95.95% of his 5k speed for 10k.

    So Zatopek in this occasion has the ability to hold his 5k speed (% thereof) for 10k slightly better then Gabrselassie

    You also wrote
    >that to compare athletes from different eras
    >"All you do is determine how close they got to
    >their potential by calculating how they converted
    >their basic speed over the lesser distances to
    >the longer ones".
    Again, I don't follow. Surly
    >your not saying that Zatopek is on the same level
    >as Geb because Zatopek was in fact SLOWER than
    >Geb over the slower distances but SLOWER to a
    >lesser degree as the distances increased. This
    >is what I read your "logic" as and I must have
    >been wrong.

    You're in the right direction. Each athlete has a speed from which they build stamina; the ability to hold a greater percentage of that speed as possible over a given distance. I am saying that Zatopek is on the same level as Gebrselassie because both men held roughly the same percentages of their basic speed at each given increase in distance. So they developed the same endurance/stamina capacity. (Smart athletes work very hard at developing their speed and stamina).

    Finally, you wrote "He (Geb)
    >can't break 26:00 but there is a couple around
    >and coming thru that can/should break
    >26:00".
    Using your math you noted above (that
    >you ask me to work on) - explain who these people
    >are (names) and how you reach this conclusion -
    >then maybe I will understand your
    >reasoning.

    Gebrselassie again:
    3:32/1500m = 7.08metres/second
    26:22/10k = 6.32metres/second
    He can hold 89.34% of his 1500m speed over 10k

    IF an athlete who can run 3:30/1500m attacks the 10k record
    3:29/1500m = 7.18metres/second IF they develop the stamina of Gebrselassie (or Zatopek)
    26:00/10k = 6.41metres/second
    That is based on being able to hold 89.34% of their 1500m speed over 10k.

    As more and more athletes come through the various systems there will be some that run 3:28 or faster for 1500m that decide to take on 10k. This is progression. This may take years or a decade - but will definately happen.

    For the Marathon:
    Radcliffe:
    30:01/10k = 5.55metres/second
    2:15:25/42.195k = 5.19metres/second
    93.53% of 10k speed maintained for marathon.

    ANY MALE WHO ATTACKS THE MARATHON WORLD RECORD WHO CAN RUN
    27:00/10k = 6.17metres/second
    AND DEVELOPS THE STAMINA OF RADCLIFFE
    2:01:48/42.195K = 5.77metres/kilometre
    93.53% of 10k speed maintained for marathon.

    Yes I am saying this is possible. Now how to do it? One problem is how to get a pace group (Radcliffe had male pacesetters). Another problem is having the vision to do it, it would take an effort and very dedicated attention; but the standard has been set by Radcliffe, she is ahead of the blokes on this one.

    Running coaches that have written more on this are Frank Horwill, Tony Benson and Arthur Lydiard (Lydiard said over a decade ago he was waiting for someone with the required speed to go sub 1:40/800m claiming that there were athletes capable of it back then but none had developed the stamina).

    Hope this helps.

    All this aside sorry for getting off track and causing so much confusion and angst.

    Sincerely
    Ben

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: a WR for Geb?

    Ben -

    "Really if you can not understand that from the way I've presented it then your whole understanding of T&F must be very limited. I teach 12-15 year olds that understand this concept better then you have "

    Ben - OK, you say you are a teacher, so teach me...I don't understand your logic (maybe I'm the only one) - maybe I'm missing something...

    My initial posting was simply supporting DL's contention that Geb could retire as the greatest ever - someone mentioned Zapopek and Nurmi - I said they didn't have to race the Africans, etc.

    You wrote that "Zatopek ran 29:17/10k and 14:06/5k at the same OG's. Geb's PB's (WR's) of 26:22 & 12:39 are not as good a demonstration of endurance".
    I don't follow.

    You also wrote that to compare athletes from different eras "All you do is determine how close they got to their potential by calculating how they converted their basic speed over the lesser distances to the longer ones".
    Again, I don't follow. Surly your not saying that Zatopek is on the same level as Geb because Zatopek was in fact SLOWER than Geb over the slower distances but SLOWER to a lesser degree as the distances increased. This is what I read your "logic" as and I must have been wrong.

    Finally, you wrote "He (Geb) can't break 26:00 but there is a couple around and coming thru that can/should break 26:00".
    Using your math you noted above (that you ask me to work on) - explain who these people are (names) and how you reach this conclusion - then maybe I will understand your reasoning.

    Thanks - Steve

    Leave a comment:

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