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Gyulai István Memorial - Continental Tour (Aug 8th)

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  • El Toro
    replied
    Originally posted by 79 View Post

    Wiederganger, I've always been fascinated by Netherland's speed skating hegemony these last decades through the Winter olympics.
    I wonder why this unique expertise could not be translated to track, to resume.
    I don't think there is much, if any, speed skating coaching expertise that could be translated to track. The movement patterns and lack of high impact training compared to running requires completely different approaches to training volume.

    I think the more important issues are the crossover in recruitment as mentioned by Weiderganger where speed skating has the bigger cultural profile and probably secures a great deal of talent compared to athletics. Coaching is not going to fix that advantage.

    Leave a comment:


  • ATK
    replied
    Originally posted by Awsi Dooger View Post
    One thing I love about Fraser-Pryce is that she always runs through the tape in center lane without veering left and being desperate to look at the clock. That enables her to maximize all year long.

    Contrast to Thompson-Herah who did veer left and gesture to the clock last year in the Olympic final. Her time was initially 10.60 then rounded up to 10.61. I guarantee if she had followed the Frase-Pryce blueprint that would have been 10.60 at worst. It may not seem like a big deal to her now but if that record holds Elaine post-career will be wishing someone had to dip under 10.60 to take the record away.
    I think your forgetting the 2022 and 2015 world championships. SAFP celebrated early before the line.

    Leave a comment:


  • billychuck
    replied
    Originally posted by Mr Lover Lover View Post

    Which I think is her limit. I'm not sure she gets down to 10.5 either. The only one who I think is capable of doing that when in top form is ETH and who knows if she'll ever get back to that form.
    I think it's weird that, after SAFP runs 10.6x six times this season, her 14th year at the top of the sport, your takeaway is that's her limit. Seems like an unnecessarily belittling comment about a 35-year-old who is re-writing what female sprinters are capable of. Not to mention she did it twice in three days.

    Leave a comment:


  • Awsi Dooger
    replied
    One thing I love about Fraser-Pryce is that she always runs through the tape in center lane without veering left and being desperate to look at the clock. That enables her to maximize all year long.

    Contrast to Thompson-Herah who did veer left and gesture to the clock last year in the Olympic final. Her time was initially 10.60 then rounded up to 10.61. I guarantee if she had followed the Frase-Pryce blueprint that would have been 10.60 at worst. It may not seem like a big deal to her now but if that record holds Elaine post-career will be wishing someone had to dip under 10.60 to take the record away.

    Leave a comment:


  • cigar95
    replied
    Originally posted by Wiederganger View Post

    Culturally, speedskating is still a much more popular sport, and attracts a lot of talent away from athletics. There are a number of medal winning Dutch speedskaters that could possibly have been superb sprinters (like in any country where the main sports take the talent away from athletics..).
    Hopefully there's no risk that the speedskating folks will come after Femke as a pretty obvious prize. Though her preference for fast, short strides is just the opposite of what would make her a top skater.

    Leave a comment:


  • scottmitchell74
    replied
    Originally posted by Wiederganger View Post

    Culturally, speedskating is still a much more popular sport, and attracts a lot of talent away from athletics. There are a number of medal winning Dutch speedskaters that could possibly have been superb sprinters (like in any country where the main sports take the talent away from athletics..). The standard cross over people talk about is speedskating and cycling, but that's because of the very specific training speedskaters do, and a lot of the dry land work they do is on the bike. However, they also do track work, especially short sprints to practice their starts, and as I say, I've no doubt some of them could have been good sprinters had they chosen that instead. A lot of them are also very tall with long levers, so the 400m may have been their event.
    Go check out Jutta Leerdam. Olympic silver over the 1000m, she's a 6fter with a huge social media following - no guesses as to why - but with fantastic ability to pace and close races. I've always thought she could be a great 400m runner.
    Mysterious for sure.

    Leave a comment:


  • Atticus
    replied
    Originally posted by 79 View Post
    What was wrong with Coleman?
    Watching the video, he seemed to surrender around 30m from the arrival lane.
    His worst race these last 3 years?
    In 2 of those he was . . . occupied.
    He certainly has been 'off' since his return.
    Maybe next year.

    Leave a comment:


  • 79
    replied
    What was wrong with Coleman?
    Watching the video, he seemed to surrender around 30m from the arrival lane.
    His worst race these last 3 years?

    Leave a comment:


  • Trickstat
    replied
    Originally posted by Wiederganger View Post

    Culturally, speedskating is still a much more popular sport, and attracts a lot of talent away from athletics. There are a number of medal winning Dutch speedskaters that could possibly have been superb sprinters (like in any country where the main sports take the talent away from athletics..). The standard cross over people talk about is speedskating and cycling, but that's because of the very specific training speedskaters do, and a lot of the dry land work they do is on the bike. However, they also do track work, especially short sprints to practice their starts, and as I say, I've no doubt some of them could have been good sprinters had they chosen that instead. A lot of them are also very tall with long levers, so the 400m may have been their event.
    Go check out Jutta Leerdam. Olympic silver over the 1000m, she's a 6fter with a huge social media following - no guesses as to why - but with fantastic ability to pace and close races. I've always thought she could be a great 400m runner.
    My sister was a long jumper with quite powerful thighs. During her sports degree in the 1980s someone told her that she had a very good build for a sprint speed skater.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wiederganger
    replied
    Originally posted by 79 View Post

    Wiederganger, I've always been fascinated by Netherland's speed skating hegemony these last decades through the Winter olympics.
    I wonder why this unique expertise could not be translated to track, to resume.
    Culturally, speedskating is still a much more popular sport, and attracts a lot of talent away from athletics. There are a number of medal winning Dutch speedskaters that could possibly have been superb sprinters (like in any country where the main sports take the talent away from athletics..). The standard cross over people talk about is speedskating and cycling, but that's because of the very specific training speedskaters do, and a lot of the dry land work they do is on the bike. However, they also do track work, especially short sprints to practice their starts, and as I say, I've no doubt some of them could have been good sprinters had they chosen that instead. A lot of them are also very tall with long levers, so the 400m may have been their event.
    Go check out Jutta Leerdam. Olympic silver over the 1000m, she's a 6fter with a huge social media following - no guesses as to why - but with fantastic ability to pace and close races. I've always thought she could be a great 400m runner.
    Last edited by Wiederganger; 08-09-2022, 07:31 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Diara31
    replied
    Have we ever had so many women with the slight if minute chance of breaking the women's 400m record since the 80s? Sydney, Shaunae, Shericka (if she decides to come back to the 400m) and Salwa (if she somehow manages to get back to and perhaps improve on her 2019 performance).

    Leave a comment:


  • Atticus
    replied
    Originally posted by Awsi Dooger View Post
    The projections are absurd. Nobody wants to acknowledge that Sydney already reached astonishing territory in Eugene by sprinting out so fast she reached hurdle 8 in 35.0 seconds. That type of thing is hardly available in a typical meet and even if it did it doesn't translate to 400 flat at anything close to 47.6..
    . . . yet . . . because she has not trained for the 400 . . . yet. There's a HUGE difference between 400H training (striding) and 400 training (sprinting). Once Bobby (or whoever) gets her into sprint training, while holding her insane anaerobic endurance, she need only drop into the 21.8 200 range to break the WR. Splits of 22.8/24.8 are there.

    Leave a comment:


  • Steele
    replied
    Good analysis, but you speak as if SM has maxed out her abilities, at least in the 400H. She just turned 23! Even if she does want to retire "early" in 2024 or a year or two after that, she has three or four years in her peak physical development period. I think she can get faster, can get stronger, can improve her hurdling. That's what champions do.

    What's missing is someone to challenge her, to motivate her.

    Leave a comment:


  • Awsi Dooger
    replied
    Originally posted by Diara31 View Post
    Some of y'all esp the Americans are 'high key' underrating Marita Koch's world record. That woman regardless of her doping is by FAR the most complete female sprinter of all time. She went through 300m in her record race in 34.14 seconds. Only miller uibo has come 'close' to that......in a 300m race. The next fastest time ran after her record run in 1985 is 48.14 in 2019 which is still over half a second slower. Imo, she would have to turn into another version of the current Shericka Jackson while still retaining her 400m strength to have a solid chance at that record. Running a 47.91 split (while incredibly impressive) just doesn't cut it for me when Allyson, jarmila, and the 1980s Soviet women have split faster and are still wayyy adrift of 47.6
    100% agreed. We covered this in a different thread recently. The projections are absurd. Nobody wants to acknowledge that Sydney already reached astonishing territory in Eugene by sprinting out so fast she reached hurdle 8 in 35.0 seconds. That type of thing is hardly available in a typical meet and even if it did it doesn't translate to 400 flat at anything close to 47.6.

    Sydney would have to get her 200 speed well below 22 to have any chance to dip below 48, let alone the entirely different dimension of 47.60. If Sydney does switch to 400 flat I guarantee Kersee will have her running 200 sprints, to get accustomed to flat out speed and remaining true to the left side of the lane on turns, just like he used sprint hurdles to get her acclimated to longer strides and being able to lead comfortably with both legs.

    It is destined to fall shy of public estimates. Sydney's edge in hurdles stems from rare ability to apply 14 strides despite her relatively modest height for the event. Her 5-9 height and prodigy ability level enable her to transition out of the 14 strides and quickly get on the bicycle like a sprinter. That's fantastic but she was not a prodigy short sprinter. She would have to be a prodigy sprinter to threaten the 47.60. As always, those records are broken by going out at unthinkable speed and then hanging on. Sydney is never going to do it via something like 23.2 followed by 24.3.

    Likewise it is ridiculous to assert Sydney will dip below 50 in 400 hurdles. I'd love for someone to apply logical math to that as opposed to being yet another happy adjuster, making any number anything they want it to be. Sydney would have to drop another full second and reach 8 at 34.0. As I've mentioned, only once has she reached 8 below 35.9. The 34.0 would be terrific for flat speed let alone 7 prior hurdles in the way. And even if she reached 8 at 34.0 she would still have to maintain enough strength coming home to get there below 16.0. For reference, that is Bol's standard split coming home, and commentators love to emphasize that Bol's strength is the final two hurdles.

    Sydney already suffered several tenths when she went out in 35.0 instead of 36.0. Her close was 15.68 in Eugene compared to 15.28 today. Now just imagine how much more she's likely to fade if she goes out 3% faster than she did in Eugene. The only way it makes sense if if she turns into a male and can use 13 strides for the bulk of the race.

    I do think there is one method for Sydney to improve her typical race, like today. After using 14 strides through 7 she switches to 15 on 8-10. But she gets a bit cramped on 10. She is relaxed at that point, while running the straightaway and no more turns to worry about. I think she can drop back down to 14 on 10. That would be similar to Tokyo where she chopped to 16 on 9 but dropped to 15 on 10.

    However, dropping to 14 would only be possible in a normal race, not a championship race while pursuing a rapid time. She needs every bit of 15 at that point. In fact, the nonsensical aspect of sub-50 is accompanied by the likelihood that following such a blistering pace she would probably need 16 again, just like Tokyo, and perhaps on 9 and 10 instead of merely 9 alone.

    We'll see sub-50 from a woman when there's a freak sprint prodigy who is built something like Miler-Uibo, Thiam or Rojas and can take either 14 strides all the way around, or 13 for much of the race.

    Leave a comment:


  • ATK
    replied
    Originally posted by 18.99s View Post
    She doesn't like competing anymore
    Is this based in fact? Like do you have a quote from her or her team etc?

    Leave a comment:

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