Boston: Devil's Advocate Question

[gh]

So did the U.S. mean really have a "breakthrough" or as much as anything are the high places/fast times more just the product of perfect conditions and/or a weaker-than-usual international field?

[eldrick]

it's a tough course & in good conditions i believe it's usually won in ?2"09 - 2"10 by guys who may be 2"07 - 2"'08 guyz on flat courses

so the americans who went 2"11 here may be 2"09 on a flat course

2"09 is very respectable - won't win big city marathons, but is quality & somehing to build on

[SQUACKEE]

Re: Boston: Devil's Advocate Question

So did the U.S. mean really have a "breakthrough" or as much as anything are the high places/fast times more just the product of perfect conditions and/or a weaker-than-usual international field?

BOTH!

[EPelle]

Past 10 winners prior to today:

1996 Moses Tanui Kenya 2.09.15
1997 Lameck Aguta Kenya 2.10.34
1998 Moses Tanui Kenya 2.07.34
1999 Joseph Chebet Kenya 2.09.52
2000 Elijah Lagat Kenya 2.09.47
2001 Lee Bong-Ju Korea 2.09.43
2002 Rodgers Rop Kenya 2.09.02
2003 Robert Kipkoech Cheruiyot Kenya 2.10.11
2004 Timothy Cherigat Kenya 2.10.37
2005 Hailu Negussie Ethiopia 2.11.45

Would say that the USA guys have improved and benefitted by the "average" Boston pacing (meaning the expected winning times). Lack of depth? No, not in terms of winning-time to 10:th positioning.

[MJD]

Fast course. A lot of guys run their best time there.

[tandfman]

Fast course. A lot of guys run their best time there.

It certainly has the potential to be a fast course. There's some net drop in elevation, but probably more important is the fact that it's hugely pont-to-point, so if there's a good prevailing wind from the West (as there sometimes is), times can be fast.

[OJ]

Re: Boston: Devil's Advocate Question

So did the U.S. mean really have a "breakthrough" or as much as anything are the high places/fast times more just the product of perfect conditions and/or a weaker-than-usual international field?

I all depends what your meaning of "breakthrough" is?

1983 BAA Marathon
1. G. Meyer, MA 2:09:00
2. R. Tabb, OR 2:09:31
3. B. Durden, GA 2:09:57
4. E. Mendoza, AZ 2:10:06
5. C. Bunyan, IL 2:10:54
6. D. Edge, Canada 2:11:03
7. M. Layman, WA 2:11:24
8. D. Schlesinger, MA 2:11:36
9. J. Wells, OR 2:11:42
10. B. Rodgers, MA 2:11:58
11. D. Hinz, MI 2:12:05
13. D. MacDonald, CA 2:12:49
14. B. Coates, PA 2:13:02
15. D. Gordon, OR 2:13:11
16. H. Schulz, CA 2:13:37
17. D. Rinde, CA 2:13:48
18. R. Sayre, OR 2:13:49
19. G. Vega, NY 2:14:01
20. K. McCarey, CA 2:14:09
21. T. Fleming, NJ 2:14:14
22. C. Law, NC 2:14:21
23. D. Matthews, GA 2:14:46
24. T. Shibutani, Japan 2:15:12
25. D. Patterson, PA 2:15:20
26. J. Dimick, VT 2:15:23
27. B. Allen, CO 2:15:36
28. E. Castellanou, Venezuela 2:15:40
29. L. Barthlow, MA 2:15:43
30. M. Mesler, MI 2:15:44
31. M. Pinocci, CA 2:15:50
32. P. Cummings, UT 2:16:05
33. J. Hope, CA 2:16:10
34. J. Anderson, OR 2:16:19
35. R. Serna, CA 2:16:26
36. J. Thomas, MA 2:16:28
37. F. Stonecipher, MO 2:16:35
38. A. Azocar, Venezuela 2:16:38
39. S. Molnar, PA 2:16:41
40. M. Patterson, PA 2:16:45
41. B. Hensley, CT 2:16:50
42. J. Metcalf, OK 2:17:02
43. R. Hagemann, TX 2:17:05
44. F. Torneden, KS 2:17:08
45. A. Cendejas, CA 2:17:15
46. P. Friedman, NY 2:17:17
47. D. Ryberg, NC 2:17:18
48. G. Fanelli, PA 2:17:29
49. A. Treffinger, PA 2:17:30
50. R. Fritzke, CA 2:17:31
...
56. G. Tuttle, CA 2:17:40
...
77. T. Maxwell, CA 2:19:13
...
83. T. Ratcliffe, MA 2:19:51

[OJ]

Fast course. A lot of guys run their best time there.

Disagree. The downhills are a deceptive negative factor. Today was no different. Did you see how much the runners fell apart after Heartbreak? Boston destroys the quads like no other course. Put the same field in Chicago, Berlin, Rotterdam or London and the times will be much faster.

[OJ]

Fast course. A lot of guys run their best time there.

Disagree. The downhills are deceptive negative. Today was no different. Did you see how much the runners fell apart after Heartbreak? Boston destroys the quads like no other course. Put the same field in Chicago, Berlin, Rotterdam or London and the times will be much faster.

[26mi235]

As I recall, the wind was out of the NE and was non-trivial. In that case, the wind resistence adding 12mph natural to 10mph is quite a consideration. Most of the fast Bostons have had a strong west wind, especialy Rodgers' first wind (and the 1983 race?)

[bekeselassie]

Re: Boston: Devil's Advocate Question

So did the U.S. mean really have a "breakthrough" or as much as anything are the high places/fast times more just the product of perfect conditions and/or a weaker-than-usual international field?

Excellent question and one that I think should be addressed. 8)

[gh]

Just talked to two plodding senior friends (her 3:21, him 4:28); both said the weather conditions couldn't have been better.

[unclezadok]

The USA made a breakthrough from hopelessness to mediocrity.

That's actually quite a nice PR by Sell, though.

[MJD]

Fast course. A lot of guys run their best time there.

Disagree. The downhills are deceptive negative. Today was no different. Did you see how much the runners fell apart after Heartbreak? Boston destroys the quads like no other course. Put the same field in Chicago, Berlin, Rotterdam or London and the times will be much faster.

I realize that is the party line but aren't there a lot of Americans who have their best time at Boston?

[gh]

Looking at an all-time U.S. list that doesn't include last year or this year, Boston PRs on men's side go to Kempainen, Salazar, Beardsley, Meyer, Rogers, Tabb (why, why, that's 6 of the 7 fastest ever, missing only KK). Your thoughts on "conventional wisdom" may well be right.