2023 DL attendance [split]

[CookyMonzta]

Yah, it was an incredible meet! I guess we all agree on that, at least I have yet to see anyone on this board disagree. Have you seen anyone say the performances were not amazing?

However, for me the fact that the performances of the meet were as amazing as they were, makes the issue of lots of empty seats visible in the TV-production even worse.

Even for a meet as gr8 as this we are unable to fill the seats. It is far from a good look. For me it makes it even worse...

b1d.jpg

The paddock, stables and park are closed now, and the horse is on its way to the glue factory; okay? 🤨

[DET59]

The paddock, stables and park are closed now, and the horse is on its way to the glue factory; okay? 🤨[/FONT][/SIZE]

You can tell from the pictures Cooky provided that the crowd at the slaughter of the horse was much smaller than the town officials reported. Not that it mattered to the horse....

[CookyMonzta]

You can tell from the pictures Cooky provided that the crowd at the slaughter of the horse was much smaller than the town officials reported. Not that it mattered to the horse....

Which brings me to an off-topic question: How long were horses slaughtered for their innards to make glue, before someone invented an artificial adhesive to replace the crude (and I would guess cruel) procedure?

[Awsi Dooger]

No video noise I'm aware of and I've been near it a few times. The primary reason those seats are empty is, in my opinion, because they are crappy seats! Watching the 200 start, the steeple water jump and pole vaulter butts each have their appeal of course, but you miss pretty much everything else from those seats and get to stare into the sun all afternoon in the bargain.

If you really care about butts in seats please feel free to fill one next time. Bring a friend or three.

That stadium is a known quantity including the areas that are always barren. It forever amazes me that these variables are inherited on screen as if they never could have been forecast or understood. I'm a Canes football season ticket holder. It's the same thing. That stadium is so loud with the contrived roof that I have trouble discussing the game with the knowledgable guy who sits immediately to my left. But given the angle of the sun and the areas not protected from rain by the roof there are sections that don't sell well and fans who do hold those tickets will relocate elsewhere, including to lounges. It's well known on premises. That doesn't prevent camera angles that prompt opposing fan bases to mock the attendance.

When NBC began telecasting meets at the new Hayward they were using standard camera angles. Beginning last year and taken further this year they have placed cameras to maximize the impression of the crowd. The producers default to those angles as often as possible. But during races and certain introductions there's no way to avoid brief glimpses of the crappiest angles.

[IloveFelix]

Screenshot 2023-09-18 at 11.08.11 PM.png

Full house for sure at the 2022 DL Final!

That is IMO a piss poor look. However, I assume that is a still taken not during the window of the international feed? Unless I am wrong about that, it means that very few non-fans or even casual fans were exposed to it?

I have added some stills from the window of the international feed. There are obviously a few empty seats, but it is an entirely different look from what we saw at Hayward last weekend.

Furthermore it is worth mentioning that the capacity of the Letzigrund is more than twice as much as Hayward.

I did not like that a lot of fans were arriving and taking their seats as the international feed started last year, but it is far from a big deal considering that the stadium was mostly packed for the 3 hour duration of the international feed as the stills attached clearly show.

For me Eugene should never have the DL-final or a global championships again unless the organizers will be able to somehow do a better job of filling the seats.

It is not like I am anti-American, I hold the same view about Oslo. Eugene and Oslo are fine meets (Eugene clearly the better, even as Oslo does a better job of filling the seats ATM). Oslo should never have the DL-final as long as Zurich keeps looking as good as it has in the past.

[DET59]

The future of professional track and field, like all sports, is not about paid butts in seats but paid eyes on screens. 5-20k more fans buying low budget tickets in Eugene really doesn't amount to much revenue. Right now that aspects of T&F is, frankly, a hot mess. Many of he most successful sports (NFL, UFC, etc) provide a one pay system of various levels of interest (NFL+ season pass for 2023 start at around $99/year, UFC is around $125) I think many many track fans would pay $100-$300 a year to access every major track meet under the World Athletics/NCAA umbrellas, especially if it included things like the dedicated field events streams Peacock+ has streamed, full races, an outlet for vlogs, replays of things like the 68 Olympics, etc... But it will never happen. Track just has too many conflicting private industry powers that hold the sport down.

[IloveFelix]

The future of professional track and field, like all sports, is not about paid butts in seats but paid eyes on screens. 5-20k more fans buying low budget tickets in Eugene really doesn't amount to much revenue.

This is most definitely true.

However, you miss the point I have been trying to make several dozens of times already in this thread, which makes me think that I am not flogging a dead horse after all. It is rather a case of humans unwilling to grasp a clear cut point....

The point about large sections of empty seats visible in the stadium during the broadcast is most definitely not about missed revenue for the organizers in Eugene. The point is that the conventional wisdom is that displaying such amounts of empty seats in the long term will translate into fewer eyes on screens and even worse less revenue for broadcast rights (in extreme cases it can even lead to no payment for broadcast rights, but rather the sport paying to get televised), leading to decreasing pay checks (aka Benjamin's 30 grand instead of 50 grand) and more.... It makes the sport harder to market

The La Liga executives did not decide to fine clubs who were not able to ensure that not many empty seats were displayed during broadcasts, because these clubs were getting less revenue from attending fans. No, they decided to fine such clubs because the empty seats during broadcasts hurts La Liga's brand.

Many smaller sports are not turning to smaller venues because it enables them to sell more tickets or to increase the price of such tickets. They do it because it makes their product appear better for eyes on screens, which likely will translate to more paid eyes on screens for such sports.

I have understood that the conventional wisdom is a clear minority view on this board. Even so, it remains the conventional wisdom and frankly I think it is rather common knowledge and fully uncontroversial outside the confines of this board.

It is of course possible that many other sports/leagues have gone out of their way to avoid showing large sections of empty seats for no reason whatsoever. It is possible that the executives having made such decisions (in many cases many years ago) and stuck with them since, are completely clueless. I do however find it far likelier that it is Track and Field not having done the required homework once again....

[jazzcyclist]

That is IMO a piss poor look. However, I assume that is a still taken not during the window of the international feed? Unless I am wrong about that, it means that very few non-fans or even casual fans were exposed to it?

I have added some stills from the window of the international feed. There are obviously a few empty seats, but it is an entirely different look from what we saw at Hayward last weekend.

Furthermore it is worth mentioning that the capacity of the Letzigrund is more than twice as much as Hayward.

I did not like that a lot of fans were arriving and taking their seats as the international feed started last year, but it is far from a big deal considering that the stadium was mostly packed for the 3 hour duration of the international feed as the stills attached clearly show.

For me Eugene should never have the DL-final or a global championships again unless the organizers will be able to somehow do a better job of filling the seats.

It is not like I am anti-American, I hold the same view about Oslo. Eugene and Oslo are fine meets (Eugene clearly the better, even as Oslo does a better job of filling the seats ATM). Oslo should never have the DL-final as long as Zurich keeps looking as good as it has in the past.

The only way to ensure that people are in the seats is to have strict enforcement of seat assignments by the ushers. I like the fact that I was able to move around the stadium freely at the World Championships and I hope it never comes to that. As long as the folks standing aren't obstructing the view of fans who are in their seats, why should the meet organizers care what fans do once they buy a ticket and enter the gates?

[Conor Dary]

The only way to ensure that people are in the seats is to have strict enforcement of seat assignments by the ushers. I like the fact that I was able to move around the stadium freely at the World Championships and I hope it never comes to that. As long as the folks standing aren't obstructing the view of fans who are in their seats, why should the meet organizers care what fans do once they buy a ticket and enter the gates?

Again the reason the seats were empty in many places is the standing room area was packed on the west side. Also people get up and go and come back constantly during the meet.

Meanwhile the athletes love the atmosphere and the crowd here. Fortunately the whiners are not in charge.

[Conor Dary]

Meanwhile ....Top 40 Diamond League's competition score of all-time since first season (2010).

....but the empty seats!!!! The horror!

[jazzcyclist]

Again the reason the seats were empty in many places is the standing room area was packed on the west side. Also people get up and go and come back constantly during the meet.

Meanwhile the athletes love the atmosphere and the crowd here. Fortunately the whiners are not in charge.

That's the only reasonable conclusion if a meet is sold out but seats are empty. I think we should credit Phil Knight for building a stadium with that much standing room. None of my tickets at Worlds were on the east side but I was definitely there during the men's and women's pole vault finals, leaving my seat empty, and no one complained.

[CookyMonzta]

Meanwhile ....Top 40 Diamond League's competition score of all-time since first season (2010).

....but the empty seats!!!! The horror!

Excellent list!
Have you got numbers for the meets pre-2010, when the Grand Prix and Golden League were in existence?

And what of the ISTAF, whether they were part of any Grand-Prix-style points system or not?

[bad hammy]

Yesterday evening I watched the Peacock broadcast of the meet. The only area of seats that looked mostly empty were those small crappy sections under the video board. As folks used to say - BFD! Move on to something more important. It isn't that hard to find.

[ATK]

Meanwhile ....Top 40 Diamond League's competition score of all-time since first season (2010).

....but the empty seats!!!! The horror!

Curious what this means? As in what is "competition score" and what criteria is used to evaluate and determine these scores?

[IloveFelix]

Don't say that - it just feeds his already-overdeveloped ego!

I was unfortunately not aware of the size of his ego, it is slowly dawning on me and I will make sure to take greater care going forward..

Seriously though, I don't mind not seeing eye to eye with Conor Dary on this issue. I have enjoyed reading his posts (as well as the posts of most other active posters) in other threads for a very long time (while I was only railing this forum). I am sorry that some of the posters I enjoyed the most are no longer posting though....

I am a bit surprised by what comes across as a severe case of allergy. It seems to me that some posters are wholly unable to handle any kind of criticism of US athletes or meets. I can only hope that some medication alleviating this and offering relief will become available in the near future...

The only way to ensure that people are in the seats is to have strict enforcement of seat assignments by the ushers. I like the fact that I was able to move around the stadium freely at the World Championships and I hope it never comes to that. As long as the folks standing aren't obstructing the view of fans who are in their seats, why should the meet organizers care what fans do once they buy a ticket and enter the gates?

Or we could make the conscious decision not to host key meets in venues where large sections of empty seats in the TV-production is such a big problem. Do you really think ushers were employed to keep people in their seats in Zurich during the 2022 DL-final? Eugene should OBV have a DL-meet, but as things are OBV not a championship or DL-final.

Is people not staying in their seats a problem in any other DL-venue other than Eugene?

The meet organizers should be made to care about large sections of empty seats displayed for the vast majority of the audience, the audience which counts from a financial perspective (the TVstreaming-audience), because the empty seats is harmful for the future prospects of the sport. La Liga used fines to make sure all the clubs who own the venues started to care....

Again the reason the seats were empty in many places is the standing room area was packed on the west side. Also people get up and go and come back constantly during the meet.

Meanwhile the athletes love the atmosphere and the crowd here. Fortunately the whiners are not in charge.

These are obviously valid points. As far as I know there is standing room for 19xx people. However, there were many more than 19xx empty seats. At least on Saturday.

True, as far as I know the athletes loves the atmosphere and the crowd. The crowd comes across as knowledgeable and they are somewhat loud, especially during distance races like the Bowerman Mile.

However, do you think the athletes hate the atmosphere in the Letzigrund or Brussels, or London (sold out stadium this year)? If you think the athletes on average prefer the atmosphere in Eugene over Zurich I suspect you are wrong. For me it is obvious that the atmosphere is gr8 in both of these venues.

That's the only reasonable conclusion uf a meet is sold out but seats are empty. I think we should credit Ohil Knight for building a stadium with that much standing room.

This is simply not true.

There are many reasonable explanations for a meet being sold out, with many empty seats on display. The most common explanation is that many tickets were given to sponsors etc and the holders of these tickets did not show up.

Likely the standing room is part of the explanation, but I find it exceedingly unlikely that it is the whole explanation.

Regarding Phil Knight, I think he deserves credit for getting the stadium built, full stop! Super-nice stadium purpose-built for track and field!!

The standing room I think is a different story though. Unless I have misunderstood that was built partly in a bid to reach the 30 000 capacity which was part of the bid submitted by the organizers to WA (IAAF) when they secured the rights to hos the World Championship, in a most peculiar bidding process.

As things progressed it became clear that the 30 000 target would not be met and unless I have misunderstood I think a plan was developed to partly fulfill the guarantee from the bid with standing room...

I bet the standing room is awesome for the people in attendance as the sun is baking the East stand, but it creates a problem with the TV-production....

The 12,650 permanent seats were supposed to be expandable to 25,000, but actual attendance will be less. The Sports Examiner calculated the stadium will seat 17,000, with about 14,500 tickets available and the rest for media and officials.

Thanks for reminding me Donley2. I had forgotten just how far from the 30 000 in the bid, it actually ended. I thought that the information from the University of Oregon website was accurate, but of course you are right. thanks for setting me straight!

Meanwhile ....Top 40 Diamond League's competition score of all-time since first season (2010).

....but the empty seats!!!! The horror!

Yah, we all agree. Exceptional performances in deed. Furthermore the empty seats were not a horror, it is however an issue that should be dealt with by the people in charge of the sport.

You have earlier in the thread made clear that:

"You do not care about the non-fans who are watching.

The future of the sport you (edit I) seem to refer to was decades ago...."

I think we should care very much about the casual fans and non-fans watching, because it is important for the future of our sport.

I do not necessarily agree with your assertion that the future of the sport was decades ago.

To borrow the words of some of America's latest presidential campaigns; I think we can build back better and restore the soul of our sport, I even think we can make our sport great again, especially if we employ change we can believe in. I will not be surprised if the best days of our sport lies ahead of us.

I think the fundamental differences between our positions are that you think our sport has no future and as a consequence could not care less about the "non-die hard fans".

Move on to something more important. It isn't that hard to find.

For me, this topic is very important, but I will move on now. I think we will never find common ground regarding this. At least not until the pharmaceutical industry will make some groundbreaking advances.....