7001 v. 7291

[Guest]

Sorry for the Kluf v. Jackie, but I have to inquire:

Didn't the IAAF modify the javelin a couple of years ago? (in fact, didn't they propose to wipe out Jackie's WR because of it???). Isn't it a tad harder to throw the jav now?

Also, what was Jackie's javelin during her WR Heptathlon? In fact, does anyone have the sequence of hep marks for both Kluf (Paris 2003)and Jackie WR?

How many more points would Kluf had scored with Jackie's stick? Just asking. Sorry for my ignorance on these technicalities. Peace.

[6 5.5hjsteve]

Re: 7001 v. 7291

I do not believe the situation has been specifically addressed, there was some comments about this back when the new javelin came in. Until someone seriosly threatens JJK's performance level no one has worried about it too much. There is no way to make other than a subjective modification/comparison of the 2 javs., so my guess is if and someone gets "close" to JJK's #, they'll list both until someone goes beyond JJK's #.

Kind of sloppy but what else can they do ?

[tandfman]

Re: 7001 v. 7291

It's my recollection that the IAAF made a conscious decision to let JJK's record stand.

[gh]

Re: 7001 v. 7291

IAAF addressed it at the time and decided something along the lines of "at the level the multi-athletes throw, there's not enough distance to worry about."

Which of course is way open to debate. I seem to recall a meet where for a while it appeared that the rule might screw O'Brien out of breaking Daley Thompson's WR

[Guest]

Re: 7001 v. 7291

There is a 3m difference more or less between old and new specification. Or not? Just an approximation. Carolina threw 49.90m which gave her 858 points at the worlds (total of 7001). If it was 52.90, that means 916 points. Not a world record but definitely a European Record (7059 vs. 7007).
Cheers

[Jon]

Re: 7001 v. 7291

>Sorry for the Kluf v. Jackie, but I have to
>inquire:

Didn't the IAAF modify the javelin a
>couple of years ago? (in fact, didn't they
>propose to wipe out Jackie's WR because of
>it???). Isn't it a tad harder to throw the jav
>now?

Also, what was Jackie's javelin during
>her WR Heptathlon? In fact, does anyone have the
>sequence of hep marks for both Kluf (Paris
>2003)and Jackie WR?

How many more points would
>Kluf had scored with Jackie's stick? Just
>asking. Sorry for my ignorance on these
>technicalities. Peace.



Just done some quick research. I've taken 4 female Jevlin throwers who were competing both before and after the new model came in. I've taken an average of their top five scores with the old Javelin and an average of their top five scores with the old Javelin (with Hattestad, I've used her top ten marks). Then, from these averages, I've worked out the ratio of difference for each athlete and then taken an average of all the ratios.

Athlete / Av. of Old / Av. of New / Ratio
Hattestad / 70.754 / 67.903 / 1.04199
Forkel / 69.96 / 63.508 / 1.10159
Damaske / 69.124 / 66.058 / 1.04641
Nerius / 68.474 / 65.018 / 1.05315

Average of the four ratios = 1.0608 (rounded figure)


JJK threw 45.66 (a below-par mark for her at that time) with the OLD model when she set her WR. Using the figure above, this would work out to ~ 48.44m with the new Javelin, giving a difference of 54 points. This would mean the WR would be 7345!!

Kluft threw 49.90 with the NEW model in Paris. Using the figure above, this would work out to around 47.04m with the old Javelin - a difference of 55 points, bringing her points total down to 6946.

To conclude, for marks set between 45-50m in the JT (a bracket in which most top heptathletes seem to throw), there would be a points difference of ~ 55 points (2.80-2.90m).

[Jon]

Re: 7001 v. 7291

>>Sorry for the Kluf v. Jackie, but I have
>to
>inquire:

Didn't the IAAF modify the
>javelin a
>couple of years ago? (in fact, didn't
>they
>propose to wipe out Jackie's WR because
>of
>it???). Isn't it a tad harder to throw the
>jav
>now?

Also, what was Jackie's javelin
>during
>her WR Heptathlon? In fact, does anyone
>have the
>sequence of hep marks for both Kluf
>(Paris
>2003)and Jackie WR?

How many more
>points would
>Kluf had scored with Jackie's
>stick? Just
>asking. Sorry for my ignorance on
>these
>technicalities. Peace.



Just
>done some quick research. I've taken 4 female
>Jevlin throwers who were competing both before
>and after the new model came in. I've taken an
>average of their top five scores with the old
>Javelin and an average of their top five scores
>with the old Javelin (with Hattestad, I've used
>her top ten marks). Then, from these averages,
>I've worked out the ratio of difference for each
>athlete and then taken an average of all the
>ratios.

Athlete / Av. of Old / Av. of New /
>Ratio
Hattestad / 70.754 / 67.903 /
>1.04199
Forkel / 69.96 / 63.508 /
>1.10159
Damaske / 69.124 / 66.058 /
>1.04641
Nerius / 68.474 / 65.018 /
>1.05315

Average of the four ratios = 1.0608
>(rounded figure)


JJK threw 45.66 (a
>below-par mark for her at that time) with the OLD
>model when she set her WR. Using the figure
>above, this would work out to ~ 48.44m with the
>new Javelin, giving a difference of 54 points.
>This would mean the WR would be 7345!!

Kluft
>threw 49.90 with the NEW model in Paris. Using
>the figure above, this would work out to around
>47.04m with the old Javelin - a difference of 55
>points, bringing her points total down to
>6946.

To conclude, for marks set between
>45-50m in the JT (a bracket in which most top
>heptathletes seem to throw), there would be a
>points difference of ~ 55 points (2.80-2.90m).








OK, just made a slight blip. I got the new heptathlon marks mixed up with the old (yet another reason why this message board should have an edit function)!!

JJK's JT mark from Seoul (45.66) should be worth 43.04 with the new Javelin (points difference of 50), making her WR 7241

Kluft's JT mark from Paris (49.90) would be worth 52.93 with the old Javelin (points difference of 59), making her total 7060.

If both used the old Javelin, their best scores would be:
JJK - 7291
Kluft - 7060

If both used the new Javelin, their best scores would be:
JJK - 7241
Kluft - 7001

To reconclude, the old-to-new Javelin in the heptathlon makes a difference of ~ 50-60 points (2.80-3.00m).

[Guest]

Re: 7001 v. 7291

JJK threw 45.66 (a
>below-par mark for her at that time) with the OLD
>model when she set her WR. Using the figure
>above, this would work out to ~ 48.44m with the
>new Javelin, giving a difference of 54 points.
>This would mean the WR would be 7345!!

Kluft
>threw 49.90 with the NEW model in Paris. Using
>the figure above, this would work out to around
>47.04m with the old Javelin - a difference of 55
>points, bringing her points total down to
>6946.

mmmm, isn't it the other way around?

[Guest]

Re: 7001 v. 7291

>
JJK threw 45.66 (a
>below-par mark for her at
>that time) with the OLD
>model when she set her
>WR. Using the figure
>above, this would work out
>to ~ 48.44m with the
>new Javelin, giving a
>difference of 54 points.
>This would mean the WR
>would be 7345!!

Kluft
>threw 49.90 with the
>NEW model in Paris. Using
>the figure above,
>this would work out to around
>47.04m with the
>old Javelin - a difference of 55
>points,
>bringing her points total down
>to
>6946.

mmmm, isn't it the other way
>around?

You got it.

[Guest]

Re: 7001 v. 7291

"Didn't the IAAF modify the javelin a couple of years ago?"

I'm curious when the NCAA also made the change. I am a new collegiate coach, and am updating our school records. I just need to know when the change was made, to make sure I don't overlook a possible record setting performance.

[Powell]

Re: 7001 v. 7291

I doubt the difference between old a new javelin is that large. The athletes you used were all already past their prime when the new javelin was introduced, meaning they would have been unlikely to threaten their PBs even if the specifications hadn't been changed.

IMO it's more appropriate to look at overall trends at the world level. You'll find it's a bit confusing, though...

No. 10 on the world list before and after introduction of the new javelin
old
1996 66.14
1997 66.52
1998 66.43
average 66.36
new
1999 63.52
2000 64.89
2001 64.30
average 64.24
i.e. new is 96.8% of old

However, if we take the no. 100 of each year's list, we get
old
1996 56.16
1997 55.48
1998 54.80
average 55.48
new
1999 54.54
2000 55.55
2001 54.56
average 54.88
i.e. new is 98.9% of old - very little difference

My initial guesstimate was that Kluft could have thrown about 2 meters farther with the old javelin, giving her an extra 40 points or so, but based on the above figures, it would seem the specifications only make a real difference for the very best throwers in the world (strange as it seems...)

[RussJD]

Re: 7001 v. 7291

It's probably not that strange that only good javelin throwers are affected by the difference. You probably have to have a certain level of ability, i.e. be world class, to take advantage of the better aerodynamics of the old javelin. It doesn't do any good to have a hot fighter plane if you can only get it up to 100 mph.