Shame On T&FN Board Moderators

[Piglet]

I recently posted a new message, asking why Steve Ovett did not seriously contest the 800 meters more often and try to run fast times, noting that he was obviously gifted at the distance as he had made 3 Olympic finals, won the Olympic 800 in 1980 with a very fast finish, and had finished 2nd in the 1978 European Championships to a GDR runner _we now know was doped_. This message was pulled, presumably because of the last statement. How astoundingly foolish of these people to do so. That Olaf Beyer was a doper is not a blind allegation, it is a known fact, and has been discussed many, many times, for example:

http://www.runnersworld.com/dailynew/ar ... 81015.html

"documents uncovered by Dr. Werner Franke, the German molecular biologist who has exposed the systematic drug use by German Democratic Republic (GDR) athletes, reveal several distance runners on a handwritten list of athletes on the GDR drug program. On that list are double Olympic marathon champ Waldemar Cierpinski, marathoner Jorg Peter, steeplechaser Frank Baumgartl, Olaf Beyer, Andreas Busse, and Anita Weiss. "

It is time for T&FN to GROW UP AND REALIZE THAT DENIAL IS NOT A RIVER IN EGYPT.

[dunes runner]

proof is in the pudding

"Documents uncovered" by Dr. Werner Franke, Runner's World, or Frank Shorter, who lost to Waldemar Cierpienski at Montreal, are hardly anything more than sour grapes by some and innuendo by others.

They are certainly not proof of anything.

I am happy to see T&FN is taking a proactive view of this.

[Pego]

Re: Shame On T&FN Board Moderators

<DENIAL IS NOT A RIVER IN EGYPT>

Now, this is really funny.

[Jon]

Re: Shame On T&FN Board Moderators

><DENIAL IS NOT A RIVER IN EGYPT>

Now, this is
>really funny.

I remember hearing that quote in an episode of "Clueless".....

Re: proof is in the pudding

>"Documents uncovered" by Dr. Werner Franke,
>Runner's World, or Frank Shorter, who lost to
>Waldemar Cierpienski at Montreal, are hardly
>anything more than sour grapes by some and
>innuendo by others.

They are certainly not
>proof of anything.

I am happy to see T&FN is
>taking a proactive view of this.


You're kidding, right? The documents are there. Denying East German doping is like denying the USA's involvment in Chile or the existence of the Soviet gulags. It is a reprehensible part of human history, the result of unchecked power and totalitarianism -- not on the order of the Khmer Rouge or other examples of genocide, but still a terrible thing for a government to do to its own people.

That T&FN continues to take a "look the other way" attitude, as they always have, dampens my enthusiasm for the magazine.

Re: proof is in the pudding

Funny, my enthuiasm for the magazine is dampened because it has too damned much drug talk! I want to read about athletes and their performances not back-room intrigue thankyou.

Re: proof is in the pudding

My Googling turns up only the one article (and no primary sources) by Ferstle from Runner's World Daily implicating Beyer. I'd say pulling it was a good call.

[Pego]

Re: proof is in the pudding

How manu threads have NO drug reference in them? Not too many. I'll echo Longtime Subscriber in the spirit of "let's enjoy our sport without the constant "buts"!

Re: proof is in the pudding

>Funny, my enthuiasm for the magazine is dampened
>because it has too damned much drug talk! I want
>to read about athletes and their performances not
>back-room intrigue thankyou.

I'd like to follow the NBA without reading about crime . . . I mean NFL . . . I mean MLB . . .

[bubba]

Re: proof is in the pudding

You already follow the NBA, MLB, NFL, NHL without hearing about doping. Are you going to tell me that with their laughable efforts to catch athletes doping that doping doesn't exist in those sports (the NFL has enhanced their anti-doping program in the last couple years so they're only a couple light years behind WADA now)?

Re: proof is in the pudding

"You're kidding, right? The documents are there. Denying East German doping is like denying the USA's involvment in Chile or the existence of the Soviet gulags. It is a reprehensible part of human history, the result of unchecked power and totalitarianism -- not on the order of the Khmer Rouge or other examples of genocide, but still a terrible thing for a government to do to its own people.

That T&FN continues to take a "look the other way" attitude, as they always have, dampens my enthusiasm for the magazine."

Agree with j squire. The censorship on this board is outrageous. Every time someone makes reference to the OBVIOUS drug use in the sport, Garry Hill breaks in with a sanctimonious retort, Ben Hall cites guideline #3 and the thread is yanked.

Re: proof is in the pudding

"let's enjoy our sport without the constant "buts"!

For what it's worth, I agree with Mr. Squire. What he's advocating is not cynical or negative--it's simply realistic. We can "enjoy" the sport in a much more genuine way if we deal with REALITY, not wishful thinking. But that does NOT mean fixating on the drugs issue OR paying the slightest attention to nutcases who make utterly unsubstantiated, across-the-board accusations. We should do neither. But history is history, and the evidence against the East German sporting regime (for one) appears rock solid. We can't and shouldn't pretend that that era didn't happen.

[bhall]

Re: proof is in the pudding

I've defined what I expect as proof.

You want to post allegations and discuss doping then come armed with the facts and I mean all of them. No half truths, no "all GDR athletes were dopers", pin point specific facts.

Save the one Runner's World article, which would be dismissed as hearsay in a court, I was unable to find any proof about the claim regarding Beyer.

Re: proof is in the pudding

I understand and DO agree. There is a difference between the general truth of the GDR doping regime and the SPECIFIC truth of the guilt of any given athlete. We can safely assume the former, but we CANNOT infer from it the guilt of EVERY individual. I stand by my comments above, but you are correct in reminding us of the difference.

[Jon]

Re: proof is in the pudding

>I've defined what I expect as proof.

You want
>to post allegations and discuss doping then come
>armed with the facts and I mean all of them. No
>half truths, no "all GDR athletes were dopers",
>pin point specific facts.

Save the one
>Runner's World article, which would be dismissed
>as hearsay in a court, I was unable to find any
>proof about the claim regarding Beyer.



OK, if you want some proof, then here's a start. I suggest you take some time out to read all these articles...

http://www.registerguard.com/news/20010 ... .0422.html

http://portal.telegraph.co.uk/sport/mai ... mott03.xml

http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/43/7/1262#RFN3

http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/249grnd.jsp


Some quotes from the above articles:

"Performances could be improved with the support of these drugs within four years as follows: Shot putt (men) 2.5-4 metres; Shot putt (women) 4.5-5m; Discus throw (men) 10-12m; Discus throw (women) 11-20m; Javelin throw (women) 8-15m, 400m (women) 4-5sec; 800m (women) 5-10sec, 1500m (women) 7-10 sec." (Manfred Hoppner, Sports Medical Service Deputy Director of the GDR March 3rd 1977).

"Dr Hoppner is now serving a probation sentence for his actions, elevated to the status of a major crime by the German Supreme Court."

"hundreds of physicians and scientists, including top-ranking professors, performed doping research and administered prescription drugs as well as unapproved experimental drug preparations. Several thousand athletes were treated with androgens every year, including minors of each sex. Special emphasis was placed on administering androgens to women and adolescent girls because this practice proved to be particularly effective for sports performance"


Please read the above and then give us some other explanation as to how the GDR female team (the GDR being a nation of just 17million), won more medals at the Montreal Olympic Games than the combined total of medals won by women from all the other nations.