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  • #16
    Re: proof is in the pudding

    Huh? You guys are making it sound as if these are all brand-new revelations that have never seen the light of day in TFN. The magazine has been reporting this stuff nonstop--barf--for many more years than most of you have been reading it I suspect.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: proof is in the pudding

      Have any of you rocket scientists ever stopped to think that perhaps TFN might have some liability issues to consider?

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: proof is in the pudding

        Could'a, should'a, would'a, doesn't mean had'a, did'a, proved'a.

        #1- There is no evidence that taking drugs such as EPO enhances performance in TOP distance runners;

        #2- Even IF it did, the current EPO urine test is greatly lacking in consistancy and accuracy, which leads me to believe that ALL of those with positives from such test procedures could very well be, or very likely ARE, drug free competitors;

        #3- Banning even ONE drug free competitor is worse than catching every one of those who use drugs;

        #4- In any case, cheating would need to be proven, and obvious slander should be looked at more seriously in this regard.

        Personally, I have absolutely NO interest in hearing anything whatsoever about drugs and don't care.

        I agree with those who say let's get back to focusing on training and performances.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: proof is in the pudding

          We're talking about multiple issues here and at cross-purposes. But perhaps that's the reality of this whole convoluted subject.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Shame On T&FN Board Moderators

            <"Performances could be improved with the support of these drugs within four years as follows: Shot putt (men) 2.5-4 metres; Shot putt (women) 4.5-5m; Discus throw (men) 10-12m; Discus throw (women) 11-20m; Javelin throw (women) 8-15m, 400m (women) 4-5sec; 800m (women) 5-10sec, 1500m (women) 7-10 sec." (Manfred Hoppner, Sports Medical Service Deputy Director of the GDR March 3rd 1977).>

            As I stated on a previous thread, these are Dr. Hoppner fantasy numbers (wishful thinking). Let's look at the facts of the two events where steroids ought to be the most effective, women shot put and discus. The difference between top female putters of the "drug era" (Slupianek, Fibingerov√°, Lisovskaja) and today's top performers are 2 meters top, not 4-5. The world record in discus is roughly 7 meters above 2003 World list leader, not 11-20.
            The DDR athletics program was a comprehensive governmental machine to find and develop top performers of which drugs were only a part. Actually, Cuba developed pretty much the same type of a program on the German model. Interestingly enough, other countries of the Soviet block that emulated the German program were not nearly as successful. Nor is China, I might add, as much as they try.
            "A beautiful theory killed by an ugly fact."
            by Thomas Henry Huxley

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: proof is in the pudding

              Thanks for that Lega, I was just going to post an identical comment until I saw that you had beat me to it.

              Track & Field News is a private entity, but also one with very large influence and visability throughout the T&F world. If they allow total freedom of posts of opinions, undocumented allegations, etc. they can get there rear end in a sling very quickly. And ona more parochial note, they will just abandon this Message Board after a scant period of months.

              So let's all remember that. A private enterprise that we all hold dear set up this Message Board for us to enjoy and exchange ideas, memories, information.

              Let's not Kill The Golden Goose.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: proof is in the pudding

                >Huh? You guys are making it sound as if these are
                >all brand-new revelations that have never seen
                >the light of day in TFN. The magazine has been
                >reporting this stuff nonstop--barf--for many more
                >years than most of you have been reading it I
                >suspect.





                I, for one, know perfectly well that these are not brand-new revelations. The only reason I posted my previous comment was because Ben Hall said:

                "You want to post allegations and discuss doping then come armed with the facts and I mean all of them. No half truths, no "all GDR athletes were dopers", pin point specific facts."

                I was merely pin-pointing specific facts.

                Personally, I'm not really one for speculating about athletes either (nowhere near as much as some 'fans'). But when drugs are such a big part of our sport, it's hard to ignore them (especially in the case of the GDR). The only time I usually discuss doping in athletics is when there is substancial evidence to accompany the case.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: proof is in the pudding

                  I want more Gabe Jennings

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: proof is in the pudding

                    I want more John Gill.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: proof is in the pudding

                      I want more California recall coverage/talk/speculation.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: proof is in the pudding

                        I want more Alan Webb

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: proof is in the pudding

                          I want my MTV!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: proof is in the pudding

                            "Have any of you rocket scientists ever stopped to think that perhaps TFN might have some liability issues to consider?"

                            They could hire you!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: proof is in the pudding

                              Save the one
                              >Runner's World article, which would be dismissed
                              >as hearsay in a court, I was unable to find any
                              >proof about the claim regarding Beyer.

                              Not proof, but interesting nonetheless: Seb Coe, in "Running Free" (published 1981), on the 1978 European 800 meters championships won by Beyer over Ovett and Coe:
                              "The extraordinary thing about Beyer was that Steve and I didn't see him again for ages. As he ran through the finishing line he was wrapped in blankets by two officials and hurried from the arean, instead of going off on a lap of honour, as you would expect from someone who had just won a European title. Geoff Capes and Dave Jenkins say that he walked off with his eyes completely slack. And he then went missing. We were informed that he'd provided his urine sample within thirteen minutes of running 1:43, which is unusual to say the least. It took Steve and me almost an hour and a half, and we only saw Beyer again at the victory ceremony."

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: proof is in the pudding

                                "DENIAL IS NOT A RIVER IN EGYPT."

                                "I remember hearing that quote in an episode of "Clueless"....."

                                The saying is actually, "denial is not just a river in Egypt". And believe me, Jon, it pre-dates Clueless by decades.

                                Comment

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