Spangler As Recordsetter

[gh]

After Jenny Spanger ran 2:32:29 to set an American Masters Record yesterday, somebody asked me a trivia question: "Is she the only one ever to hold the Junior and Masters records in any event at the same time?" Great question. And she probably would be the only one, except that she doesn't hold the AJR, even though USATF lists her as doing so with her 2:33:52 at Grandma's in '83.

Spangler was indeed 19 at the time (born 7/20/63), but turned 20 shortly after the run (and IAAF/USATF rules on Juniors say you have to stay teen through whole calendar year). I can only assume that USATF road people either have a different set of rules (allowing age at date of race), or they weren't aware of her birthdate.

Note that if I've got the wrong birthdate, and she was born in 1964, making her a real Junior in '83, then at the other end that means she's only 39 now, and hasn't set a Masters Record. So no matter how you look at it, she's not the answer to the trivia question. But heckuva run!

Re: Spangler As Recordsetter

Wasn't she a Junior under the rules in effect at the time she ran that race at 19? I seem to remember that it used to be you just had to be 19; didn't matter when your birthday was. Wasn't the definition of a Junior at one time even different for men and women?

[dunes runner]

Re: Spangler As Recordsetter

She was a junior, and has the AJR.

Whether IAAF/USATF approved it was up to them.

Good for Jenny Spangler!

Re: Spangler As Recordsetter

"She was a junior, and has the AJR."

Not trying to be a smartass, but if gh is correct, how can she be the AJR holder? The rules are the same for everyone (unless they HAVE changed)

Re: Spangler As Recordsetter

The Junior rules have been the same for as long as I can remember - and I'm a lot older than Spangler.

[gh]

Re: Spangler As Recordsetter

Too lazy (nah, make that too busy, sounds better!) to look up the specific year, but some time in the late '80s or early '90s, the IAAF--I believe at the urging of the Canadian federation--changed the rule. Until that time, men and women had had different parameters. Men couldn't turn 20 during the year in question, women couldn't turn 19. USATF followed suit.

In any case, applying that to Spangler only makes her farther from the definition of a Junior, not closer.

[MJD]

Re: Spangler As Recordsetter

>Too lazy (nah, make that too busy, sounds
>better!) to look up the specific year, but some
>time in the late '80s or early '90s, the IAAF--I
>believe at the urging of the Canadian
>federation--changed the rule. Until that time,
>men and women had had different parameters. Men
>couldn't turn 20 during the year in question,
>women couldn't turn 19. USATF followed suit.
>

In any case, applying that to Spangler only
>makes her farther from the definition of a
>Junior, not closer.

Dumbass canucks if true except for the part about making them the same age. Here is the bottom line. She has the fastest time for an American woman over 40 and under 20 at the time she ran the race. Period. Full stop. If that doesn't fit into some definition of some moving target definition, it doesn't change the reality of what she did. It would be like saying you weren't a master if you were less than 40 at any time during the year.

[dunes runner]

Re: Spangler As Recordsetter

Well MJD it looks we agree completely on this one.

Re: Spangler As Recordsetter

Wait'll next year! As in, note that 39-year-old Colleen de Reuck put up a 2:29 in the same race. Spangler will soon be moot.

[dunes runner]

Re: Spangler As Recordsetter

I meant as regards the "She has the fastest time for an American woman over 40 and under 20 at the time she ran the race" part.

[MJD]

Re: Spangler As Recordsetter

>I meant as regards the "She has the fastest time
>for an American woman over 40 and under 20 at the
>time she ran the race" part.

I was kidding about the other part although I've said before that the definition of what a junior is is inane and likely mostly driven by the artificial school year which should have nothing to do with the real world. There is a potential 364 day difference in age.

Re: Spangler As Recordsetter

>>I meant as regards the "She has the fastest
>time
>for an American woman over 40 and under 20
>at the
>time she ran the race" part.

I was
>kidding about the other part although I've said
>before that the definition of what a junior is is
>inane and likely mostly driven by the artificial
>school year which should have nothing to do with
>the real world. There is a potential 364 day
>difference in age.

or it could be a one day difference, didnt ritzenhiem run 13.27 for 5k at 19 but didnot get credit for a american junior record because his birthdate missed by 4 or 5 days and a real and silly question at the same time, what if one who sets an age record is one day off, but does it on the other side of the international dateline, example an american in asia or an asian in america, also i guess nicholas kipkemboi who is 19 must turn 20 before the end of the year, as i did not see his 26.30 10k listed as a wjr.

Re: Spangler As Recordsetter

also i guess nicholas kipkemboi who
>is 19 must turn 20 before the end of the year, as
>i did not see his 26.30 10k listed as a wjr.

http://www.tilastopaja.com/db/atm.asp?ID=32586

Re: Spangler As Recordsetter

Not sure, but I think the only Jr AND Master AR holder is Kate Schmidt - 6l.l2/200'6 in '72, and 43.58/143'0 in '96. With pre-'99 javelin, though.
Probably several have held both, but not simultaneously (Larrieu, Stones, Willye White, Oerter?, Decker-Slaney, Lee Evans, ? ?)

[gh]

Re: Spangler As Recordsetter

> I've said before that the definition of what a junior is is
inane and likely mostly driven by the artificial school year which should have nothing to do with the real world. There is a potential 364 day difference in age.>>

Yes, any age-group system that employs an "artificial" cutoff is going to lead to problems like a potential 364-day age difference. But there are practical considerations. If you base competition on actual date of age-change you can have people who are eligible to compete in the prelims of a meet and not the final. Or (and this is much more likely) you would have people who might compete in their nation's Junior championships for a year but be ineligible by the time the Worlds rolled around. Of the two screwy situations, the status quo is much cleaner and easier to adminstrate.