Hestrie Cloete's windmill arm movements.

[Per Andersen]

Over the last couple of seasons I have been very impressed by Cloete but quite baffled by her arm movements. She spends most of her run-up first reaching back with both arms, then swinging them forward and straight up over her head and down before she stops the outside arm (her right, she is a right footed jumper) behind her hip. The other arm also stops momentarily before she lifts it towards the bar well before takeoff. If the purpose initially was to create a powerful armlift this is not accomplished. I can only see it as an unnecessary complication and a hindrance to acceleration into the takeoff. She is certainly #1 in the world but still, why do it?
Any thoughts on this?

[gh]

Re: Hestrie Cloete's windmill arm movements.

It's very similar to what '88 Olympic champ Louise Ritter did at one time, but can't give you any rationale for it. I think in Louise's case it was a carryover from her straddle days, where you'd take the long last stride and after settling pull up with your arms.

[vaulter83]

Re: Hestrie Cloete's windmill arm movements.

May not seem like the best technique but is probably just one of her little quirks when she jumps.

[tafnut]

Re: Hestrie Cloete's windmill arm movements.

The frustrating thing as a coach is that we try to teach a little biomechanics, such as driving the lead arm up as the knee is driving, but there are the world's best who just put their arm up over the bar before the knee drive. I have come to the conclusion that it is a psychological ploy to get 'something' over the bar initially to convince the body that it can get the hips over as well. I see absolutely no reason NOT to drive the arm up with the knee as a means of explosive vertical lift. I'm pretty sure this is a mostly female thing and I seem to remember Kostadinova being a prime instigator.

[Guest]

Re: Hestrie Cloete's windmill arm movements.

It's a zero-sum universe. Cloete got all of Sun Y.'s arm movements--if you average the them out, you you have four normally functioning arms.

[Guest]

Re: Hestrie Cloete's windmill arm movements.

Sorry for the typing hiccups above.

[Guest]

Re: Hestrie Cloete's windmill arm movements.

It's just an idiosyncrasy that she's probably had since she was a kid. It's terrible technically and makes no sense, however, if she tried to change it now she'd probably screw herself up mentally. She's jumping bloody high, that's all that counts.

[gh]

Re: Hestrie Cloete's windmill arm movements.

Mark, you were an international-class high jumper, so I'll defer to your technical knowledge, but is it really "terrible technically"?

It's an action that she completes a step or two away from her takeoff. I figure you can play the bagpipes and do several 360s on your approach so long as you have optimal speed and hit your mark in the right body position. I just don't see that the arm-flailing, coming as far out as it does, compromises her in any way.

At least not until we start awarding style points :-)

[Guest]

Re: Hestrie Cloete's windmill arm movements.

Gary, you're correct in that arriving at take-off with optimum speed and perfect body position is the most critical factor in jumping high. Frankly, since I have to watch US TV, I've only seen her jump a few times. I may be incorrect but my assumption is that waving your arms around in that fashion may hinder acceleration into take-off. I've not seen any technical data, simply an impression from TV. And, as I said before, she should keep doing it because it works for her. When you try to change any element of technique radically it can really mess you up.

On a side note, if Dwight Stones is reading this he owes me a beer or ten! When I decided to take up HJing at a relative late age I attended a post-Montreal coaching clinic he ran at Crystal Palace. He said that your foot should be parallel to the bar at take off. I followed his recommendation which resulted in several surgeries, god knows how many cortisone shots, inability to jump without strapping my ankle and now, 20 years later, I can't even jog on it! Tried for years to change my technique but never managed it. Dwight, I live in Redondo Beach but am willing to drive to OC for the beers!

[Guest]

Re: Hestrie Cloete's windmill arm movements.

On a side note, if Dwight Stones is reading
>this he owes me a beer or ten! When I decided to
>take up HJing at a relative late age I attended a
>post-Montreal coaching clinic he ran at Crystal
>Palace. He said that your foot should be parallel
>to the bar at take off. I followed his
>recommendation which resulted in several
>surgeries, god knows how many cortisone shots,
>inability to jump without strapping my ankle and
>now, 20 years later, I can't even jog on it!
>Tried for years to change my technique but never
>managed it. Dwight, I live in Redondo Beach but
>am willing to drive to OC for the beers!

It sounds like a legal action to me, not a beer!!!!

This is a joke by the way, don't erase it.

[Guest]

Re: Hestrie Cloete's windmill arm movements.

As long as her arm movement doesn't cause her to prematurely lift her body out of the crouch, it really has no effect. The idea is to coil the body like a spring and then uncoil at take off.

[jhc68]

Re: Hestrie Cloete's windmill arm movements.

Hestrie's arm actions are way too complex to analyse without frame by frame visuals, but my hunch is that, beyond being obvious individual quirks, they give her some mechanical advantage. Clearly, if a jumpers arms are directly powerfully upward just before take off, a lot of upper body weight is effectively neutralized so the push-off thrust has to propel less mass vertically (stand flat footed and throw your arms up as hard as possible... a well conditioned athlete can usually lift him/herself off the ground!). I would think her seemingly random flailings are helping her to some degree, although it would be silly for a coach to recommend copying them.

[Per Andersen]

Re: Hestrie Cloete's windmill arm movements.

I agree with marknhj that the windmilling makes no sense and that it is probably something she has been doing since she was a kid. It is just that with this idiosyncrasy I think she is pushing the envelope a bit. She uses an 11 step runup (walks the first 2) and of the 9 running steps 5 are spent windmilling all the way into the penultimate step. Then the arms STOP before she raises the inside arm. Thus nothing is gained. I guess the question is, does it effect her acceleration into the takeoff?
To tafnut, I can't agree that the "raised arm takeoff" is mainly a woman thing. Both the top Swedes Stefan Holm and Staffan Strand do it (but not Kajsa). Freitag also partially does it. In e-mail correspondance with Strand he told me that he feels that it helps him retain speed into the takeoff. He also said that he is proof that one can jump 2.35 that way!

[tafnut]

Re: Hestrie Cloete's windmill arm movements.

Yeah, I actually did think of some men who do it after I posted, but there's no way that raising your arm before takeoff helps keep your speed. Running into the take-off with arms pumping, and then driving the inside knee and arm simultaneously (and powerfully) HAS to be the most biomechanically efficient, YES??!!

[Guest]

Re: Hestrie Cloete's windmill arm movements.

You guys baffle me, I come from SA and have watched her jump a few times. The high jump is a hugely mental event about breaking mental barriers as well as height barriers. Technically to break those barriers she would have to get herself into a position to be really confident. In short those arm movement make her jump, not just great, but brilliant. Top coaches have critisized her, she tried to change, but the change did not work, so therefore she would keep them. I think the arms help create the feeling of upwards drive moments before the actual lift. Many people do things differently, like nelson for example, look at their results not their styles!