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  • Brian
    replied
    Re: Running a 3:49.80 mile

    >>Mr. Spivey, you are a coach. Don't your athletes do off-season
    >basework,
    >aiming for a CONSERVATIVE and GRADUAL 10-15% volume increase? Don't
    >they then
    >average slightly higher overall and per week mileage throughout the
    >year
    >(which builds up year after year)? If not, what do you have them do?
    >Honest
    >question.

    >Still waiting. Surely this can't be that tough >a question.



    Now that the Worlds are done, perhaps Coach Spivey will have the time to answer this honestly-asked question rising from his previous comments regarding training.

    Leave a comment:


  • Brian
    replied
    Re: Running a 3:49.80 mile

    >Mr. Spivey, you are a coach. Don't your athletes do off-season
    >basework, aiming for a CONSERVATIVE and GRADUAL 10-15% volume increase? Don't
    >they then average slightly higher overall and per week mileage throughout the
    >year (which builds up year after year)? If not, what do you have them do?
    >Honest question.

    Still waiting. Surely this can't be that tough a question.

    Leave a comment:


  • MJD
    replied
    Re: Running a 3:49.80 mile

    >Ahhh, maybe journalist don't dig as deep b/c people aren't as interested and
    >news is too ever changing and of the moment...someone can dig, dig, dig all
    >they want, but by the time a good lead becomes a good story it's old news in
    >todays "information now" world...


    Most younger people these days want a more balanced life no matter what field they are in. Nothing wrong with that but the non family stuff can't be performed at at the same level as it has been done in the past. Pretty simple really.

    Leave a comment:


  • Brian
    replied
    Re: Running a 3:49.80 mile

    >Jim's follow-up post was even more insightful than the original. The point on
    >mileage/injury is well taken. There have been countless athletes with
    >remarkable endurance from tremendous base miles and trying to keep the mileage
    >high when the fast stuff starts, who were on the side-lines when the racing
    >started. Keep it conservative and planned.

    Yes, but in order to improve beyond simple physical maturation (which plateaus in the twenties) you DO need to increase the training stimulus, both volume and intensity. Volume must come first (not in big chunks, but conservatively over the span of several years) in the off season, when the stress of intensity work is little to non-existent. Then the mileage/volume stress drops as intensity stress is added.

    [You obviously had the intensity...but where's the gradual increase in volume?]

    Pre-season volume is what helps AVOID injury later when the intensity is applied.

    Speaking in general terms, an athlete saying they couldn't do higher volume because of the intensity stress is mixing apples and oranges. [If they had, it would be almost a guarantee of getting injured!]

    Some athletes--particularly milers--have trouble psychologically if they don't constantly "feel" fast. But sadly, if it is being done correctly, there NEEDS to be a time when you feel slow. It passes and you end up faster than ever because of the increased stamina, but a lot of athletes get scared it is "gone for good" when they feel slow during the mileage phase of training.

    Mr. Spivey, you are a coach. Don't your athletes do off-season basework, aiming for a CONSERVATIVE and GRADUAL 10-15% volume increase? Don't they then average slightly higher overall and per week mileage throughout the year (which builds up year after year)? If not, what do you have them do? Honest question.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cyril
    replied
    Re: Running a 3:49.80 mile

    Jim's follow-up post was even more insightful than the original. The point on mileage/injury is well taken. There have been countless athletes with remarkable endurance from tremendous base miles and trying to keep the mileage high when the fast stuff starts, who were on the side-lines when the racing started. Keep it conservative and planned.

    Also, the point of "floating" 57.5s is great. This is what El G. refers to as "finding rythm". Numerous repeats at seasonal goal race pace is better than simply ripping several 4s to feed the ego.

    Leave a comment:


  • tafnut
    replied
    Re: Running a 3:49.80 mile

    "to run 3:50, you have to train at that pace. Not 3:40! 57.5 is 3:50, so you need to be able to float at this pace. Training at 53 or 55 pace does not help on the 3rd lap when you get tired. You have to put in numerous workouts at the desired and attainable race pace."

    I hope the people in position to get to 3:50 read that. I am a firm believer in the idea that you CAN train too fast.

    Leave a comment:


  • SQUACKEE
    replied
    Re: Running a 3:49.80 mile

    thanx jim! floating a 57.5... now thats beautiful

    Leave a comment:


  • einnod23
    replied
    Re: Running a 3:49.80 mile

    Post of the century.

    It's good to see how the real guys do it, as opposed to us smacktalkers behind a computer like me.

    Leave a comment:


  • J. Spivey
    replied
    Running a 3:49.80 mile

    17 July London
    Oslo Dream Mile, 1990, J. Falcon, 1st 3:49.
    Oslo Dream Mile, 1991, J. Spivey, 3rd, 3:49.82
    July 6th, 1991

    Steve Holman and Alan Webb have run 3:50. since then.

    2005 Dream mile is the 29th of July, a week from Saturday.

    PR's
    440 - 49.8y HS age 18
    880 - 1:50.2
    mile - 4:06.2
    2 mile - 9:00.5
    3 Mile CC - 14:00.0 (Craig Virgin still holds the course record for Illinois, 13:50. T. Graves 13:56. J. Torres, 14:00; Don Sage 14:03)

    college:
    400 - 48.9 practice 1982 (senior year)
    800 - 1:46.5 (senior year, at Cal)
    1500 - 3:37.25 NCAA's junior
    mile - 3:55.55 junior Pepsi meet
    3k - 7:52 - Copenhagen, junior
    2 mile - 8:24 Pepsi, sophomore
    5000 - 13:33 - junior, Sports Festival

    Other pr's, age
    1000 - 2:16.40 1984, 24, Pre meet $1,000 Cruz 1st
    1500 - 3:31.01 1988, 28, Koblenz, $3,000 1st
    2000 - 4:52.44 1987, 27, Lausanne, ?? 1st
    3000 - 7:37.07 1992, 33, Colonge, $4,000 3rd
    5000 - 13:15.86 1994, 34, Berlin

    practice pr's:
    800 - 1:48.1 2 weeks before running 3:49.80 1986
    1200 - 2:52.2 3 weeks before 1984 Oly Games/LA
    3000 - 8:14 Jan 1987
    2 mile - 8:38 May 1984
    note for the 2 mile, it was
    supposed to be 30/40, or 70
    seconds per lap, but felt great,
    and came through in 4:14, so
    30/34. were the splits.
    lack of mileage...
    Anytime you increase mileage, you also increase the chance of injury. I think the previous post is correct in assuming the fact that Liquori and Ryan had limited time to run fast. I felt that way through 1988, then after not running for 6 months, wanted to avoid injury at all costs. I felt that 75 was the border line, and over that amount, was skating on the edge. Remember, when training with Mike and Ken, most interval workouts were 5-6 miles of intervals. When you run 4 sets of 5x200/5x250 with 100m or 150 recovery, and 400 between sets, you are out there a long time. You need to recover the next day. I would agree, that if I could have run 70-80 a week consistently, I may have run faster. What was more important to me was massage, fruit, and truly enjoying what I did. Seb Coe said to me that "in training, you have to get to a point where you are tired all the time." Everyday. I did get to that point, but was concerned about injury. Soft surface running, a 30 mile path that used to be an electric train line, was also a key to training.
    $12k a lot... hmmm. Even if the athlete ran 3:31.01 in August? Even if they offered a 3 year contract 36 months later, at age 31?
    Actually, I have always thought that it was a smart business decision for N. 28, missed the team, go with Atkinson, the Trials champion. Strictly from a business perception, I agree. From a loyalty and lenght of wearing the product, and supporting the product (1978 when Geoff Hollister approached me to run for N while a freshmen in college), I disagree. In the end, it has been the best outcome. I am still with ASICS today, and able to help other college teams with purchasing ASICS product (currently 9) at a great price.
    Merrill Noden, who writes various articles including for Sports Illustrated, was here in London today with his family. We talked about how to help distance runners post-college, and the goal of 3:50. He believes that we have to help all events, not just the distances. He said he knows many runners who ran with him at Princeton in the 70's, who would be willing to help. How do we get financally successful people involed with distance runners, which is my focus?
    Jack has great ideas, and I hope we can use this forum to keep individuals in the loop.
    Lastly - to run 3:50, you have to train at that pace. Not 3:40! 57.5 is 3:50, so you need to be able to float at this pace. Training at 53 or 55 pace does not help on the 3rd lap when you get tired. You have to put in numerous workouts at the desired and attainable race pace.
    js

    Leave a comment:


  • Dutra
    replied
    Re: Running a 3:49.80 mile - telling your son

    >To get only $12,000 dollars for being the third fastest American ever in the
    >mile is pretty lame.
    I am sure the third best player in the NBA is a
    >multi-millionaire.

    Webb is still not as good as Spivey was in his prime and
    >he has a six-figure contract.

    If you take the pay scale in other American
    >sports in to consideration a sub 3:50 mile is a million dollar accomplishment.
    >A sub 3:50 mile is so rare in American athletics it should be rewarded with a
    >cash bonus. If you break 3:50 for the mile you should be a millionaire. Heck,
    >they are paying .250 hitters in the major leagues $3,000,000 a season.>>>>

    You should be making whatever someone is willing to pay you.

    BTW,
    >I think Spivey was the last American to break 3:50 back in 91. Falcon was also
    >in his prime when Spivey broke 3:50. I believe Falcon ran his sub 3:50 mile in
    >the 1990 Dream mile in Oslo. In that race he out kicked Peter Elliot.>>

    Correct. JS was third in Oslo in 1991.

    Leave a comment:


  • 15mph
    replied
    Re: Running a 3:49.80 mile - telling your son

    To get only $12,000 dollars for being the third fastest American ever in the mile is pretty lame.
    I am sure the third best player in the NBA is a multi-millionaire.

    Webb is still not as good as Spivey was in his prime and he has a six-figure contract.

    If you take the pay scale in other American sports in to consideration a sub 3:50 mile is a million dollar accomplishment. A sub 3:50 mile is so rare in American athletics it should be rewarded with a cash bonus. If you break 3:50 for the mile you should be a millionaire. Heck, they are paying .250 hitters in the major leagues $3,000,000 a season.

    BTW, I think Spivey was the last American to break 3:50 back in 91. Falcon was also in his prime when Spivey broke 3:50. I believe Falcon ran his sub 3:50 mile in the 1990 Dream mile in Oslo. In that race he out kicked Peter Elliot.

    Leave a comment:


  • Brian
    replied
    Re: Running a 3:49.80 mile - telling your son

    >old Sports Illustrated cover featuring Marty Liquori beating Jim Ryun.
    You
    >almost never see front line coverage of the mile anymore.


    Good point. But you never see the Mile anymore mostly because there AREN'T that many Mile races! [One of my pet peeves.] A big part of the decline of the sport came when the US T&F powers that be adopted the metric system. Joe Sixpack/casual "fan" can't relate and therefore doesn't care.

    But even so, up until maybe ten years ago, you could ask at any bar, sports or otherwise, if people had ever heard of Jim Ryun and you would have been surprised. Why? Because he at one time held the WORLD RECORD. That's important to the casual observer who only sees the cream once it's risen and has zero interest in the process.
    And interestingly, if Ryun didn't have such a full plate today with his congressional career, he would be doing fine financially with speaking engagements, a la' Billy Mills.

    Quality is, and always has been, of primary importance to the casual fan and thus to corporate sponsors.

    When money came into the sport in the eighties, a lot of athletes realized, as Spivey said, that they could make a living through athletics. So instead of athletes like Ryun knowing their careers could only span another 4 years or so after college and thus trying to get everything they could out of themselves before giving it up to get jobs and raise families, a lot of athletes began to plan for 10 year careers and the quality dropped considerably once that modern career "business" plan kicked in.

    For years, people have marveled at the Kenyans' running. The Kenyans run as Ryun, Liquori and Walker used to, like there is no tomorrow. Once they make the circuit, they bust themselves to get everything they can as fast as possible before politics and/or somebody better gets their travel visa next year.

    They do NOT run to make certain they can be on the circuit year after year after year.

    BTW, a $12,000 contract in the late eighties wasn't that bad for someone who missed the Olympic team (read: exposure to the general public in the ONLY venue the casual fan in the US cares about) and was possibly perceived as getting close to seeing his best days behind him. That kind of money won't buy you a condo, but it still gets you where you need to go so you can have the chance to do something of great quality that might result in lots of speaking engagements worth FAR more than $12,000 later on down the line. And if your training has optimally developed your genetic potential, great quality will indeed follow.

    Kastner's coach, Joe Vigil pointed this out in an interview in USA Today a year or two ago when the major Fall marathons were after Kastner. He said, "Deena's never chased the money and now the money's chasing her."

    I'm not saying Spivey or anyone else was chasing the money, but that's not the point anyway. The point is what it has always been and will always be: quality gets rewarded. Pursue quality and the great things will come, whatever your level.

    I don't believe the majority of US distance athletes at the very top have subscribed to that belief for a number of years. This seems to be changing, maybe because of the role models in Kastner, Keflezghi, et al. I hope so.

    Leave a comment:


  • eldrick
    replied
    Re: Running a 3:49.80 mile - telling your son

    >Joe Falcon<

    you'd better tell us a bit more about him - i'm not overly familiar with the guy

    Leave a comment:


  • JRinaldi
    replied
    Re: Running a 3:49.80 mile - telling your son

    Joe Falcon

    Leave a comment:


  • eldrick
    replied
    Re: Running a 3:49.80 mile - telling your son

    >you are at a sports bar & ask somebody who was the last American to break 3:50
    >for the mile. They would probably look at you with a vacant stare.<


    ok

    i'll take my slapping

    who was it ?

    Leave a comment:

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