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  • #16
    Re: I think they do train enough

    Good points on the racing, but remember that many of these older race-everything guys had a devil of a time putting it all together on the day that it counted. They ran fast but few medaled and most stunk up the place when the Games came 'round.
    Lydiard guys were an exception in the 60's. Not coincidently, Lydiard believed building up to 100 miles per week was the max that should be done. Perhaps his marathoners did slightly more, but I'd bet not much more.

    I think the thing that has hurt the most is the loss of firm season for a lot of athletes. Lydiard, and modern day succesful coaches, have strict training and racing seasons for their athletes, some almost to the day as far as predictability. For instance, Geb usually starts his outdoor season with a race, usually a 10,000, at Hengelo, etc. Lydiard himself used to be the same way with his athletes. In the US, Wetmore (a Lydiard man) is following suit, with great success.

    Guys like Clarke traveled everywhere and raced every chance they got--it had to have hurt them. Just think how much tougher a non-season buckshot approach is for a coach to plan training...it has to be just as tough for the body, which thrives on a regular routine, to execute that haphazard program.

    Things haven't been the same since the road race boom in the early eighties. That turned many distance runners into "Ron Clarke's".
    Even during the eighties and the money boom, the best athletes were always those who kept a consistant yearly racing (and thus training) schedule. That's why the Coes and Ovetts in track and the Porters and Ngugis in Cross, and the Bordins and Sekos in marathoning did so well.
    (And why a certain Brit lady is presently dominating the world!) Every time a DeCastella or Steve Jones (for examples of a few who came to the US to concentrate on the roads) deviated from that schedule, they played with fire and inevitably got burnt.

    Not that I blame any of these people for pursuing their careers as best they see fit. But removing the "seasonality" removes the regular routine on which the body thrives. As Cindi Lauper sang, "Money changes everything."

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: I think they do train enough

      >Even during the eighties and the
      >money boom, the best athletes were always those
      >who kept a consistant yearly racing (and thus
      >training) schedule. That's why the Coes and
      >Ovetts in track and the Porters and Ngugis in
      >Cross, and the Bordins and Sekos in marathoning
      >did so well.
      (And why a certain Brit lady is
      >presently dominating the world!) Every time a
      >DeCastella or Steve Jones (for examples of a few
      >who came to the US to concentrate on the roads)
      >deviated from that schedule, they played with
      >fire and inevitably got burnt.

      Not that I
      >blame any of these people for pursuing their
      >careers as best they see fit. But removing the
      >"seasonality" removes the regular routine on
      >which the body thrives. As Cindi Lauper sang,
      >"Money changes everything."

      Don't understand your point w.r.t Jones. Even if he does nothing else, you can't call his Chicago solo WR "getting burnt"?

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: I think they do train enough

        Is it simply a coincidence that the rise of the dominant African distance runners inversely paralleled the decline of the Euro/US distance runners?

        I don't know, but I think they are to some degree related. While I think money helped get the Africans more involved, I don't think it was a factor for depressing US runners. It may be more socialogical or even psychological. Many US/Euro athletes may have "given up" either by not participating in the sport that they now perceive as being an "African" sport, or by simply feeling subconsciously inferior when competing because of East Africa's dominance.

        Just one possible theory.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: US Marathoners

          >>Lets look at the stats. US marathon running
          >has
          >taken a big nose dive in the past 15
          >years.>
          Did this just occur to you or is this
          >just switching events from the "American milers
          >suck" threads?

          Well, these two trends may be more related than you think! American distance running suffers because the public, and athletes, still worship the 4:00 mile. Many college athletes hang around running 3:43 1500s so that they can get a shot at breaking 4. So we have an overabundance of 3:40 1500 runners who refuse to move up to the 5k or even 10k. Americans think they're successful because they can break 4 minutes. On the other hand, look at the top 5k and 10k runners. Many have 1500 PRs in the low 3:30s, and they just don't consider themselves competitive at the shorter distance.

          By not moving up to the 5k and 10k, the current 5k and 10k runners can remain comfortably competitive in the US, and don't need to think about moving up the marathon until they start to slow down at the shorter distances.

          I agree that training volumes seem to be down, and in part that's a result of the lack of sponsorship that use to allow a larger group to run 100+ mi/wk. I think that much training is financially more difficult now.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: US Marathoners

            >I think that much
            >training is financially more difficult now.

            So work and run. You only need a couple of hours a day. Last I looked there were 24. Didn't hurt Steve Jones. It comes down to how bad do you want it. Period. Full stop.

            Comment


            • #21
              But I'm not sure the "volume IS down

              Josh Cox. Ryan Shay,Adam Wallace, Dan Browne, KK of course, Culpepper right off the top of my head..all these guys have worked up to 120 miles a week..I'm sure..maybe not for an extended period of time like Hill and those boys....I just think it is something completely different...something in the culture...Maybe Kenyans run with more desperation..no that's not it, that dosen't explain Radcliffe...
              I think it's due to the Bannister syndrome..as soon as Bannister broke the 4 minute barrier, Landy did, then did again and again...
              The US has been in such a rut for such a long time, maybe we need for someone to just break the ice, and then it'll happen once again and again.

              Very mysterious to say the least, but I do believe American marathoners are running comprable mileage with any other countries marathoners....

              Comment


              • #22
                U.S. Marathoners

                At the risk of raising the ire of management, there are two things at play here. One is genetics: the Kenyans are throughbreds, Americans are Clydesdales. The other is the D-word. The U.S. may lead the world in that department in most other events, but is sadly behind nations that have federation-sponsored D programs for distance running. We're toast.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: But I'm not sure the

                  >Josh Cox. Ryan Shay,Adam Wallace, Dan Browne, KK
                  >of course, Culpepper right off the top of my
                  >head..all these guys have worked up to 120 miles
                  >a week

                  I do believe American
                  >marathoners are running comprable mileage with
                  >any other countries marathoners....

                  ----------------------

                  But for how long? They're leagues behind east Africans in lifetime totals. Take Gebrselassie for example. He was running 20km/day, 5 days a week from the time he was 8 until he was 17. And then when he got home, he wasn't sitting on his ass; he was plowing fields, chasing goats, and on his feet for 3 hours bringing water to the house. He's been training 10 more years than any American marathoner of similar age, and that's why it takes so much longer for our athletes to reach similar levels as east Africans.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: U.S. Marathoners

                    >At the risk of raising the ire of management,
                    >there are two things at play here. One is
                    >genetics: the Kenyans are throughbreds, Americans
                    >are Clydesdales. The other is the D-word. The
                    >U.S. may lead the world in that department in
                    >most other events, but is sadly behind nations
                    >that have federation-sponsored D programs for
                    >distance running. We're toast.

                    I don't know, if we look at milers, the times of Scott, Spivey, Cram, Coe, Ovett etc. still hold up by today's standards. And, while Rogers, Shorter, Salazar aren't on the same page as today's WC marathoners there were many more fast US marathoners 20 years ago than there are today. Sure, the East Africans may have more numbers but we should still be able to have more athletes who are able to compete at least as well as we did in the 70s/80s. It is this talk of African superiority that may be a big part of the problem.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: US Marathoners

                      >>I think that much
                      >training is financially more
                      >difficult now.

                      So work and run. You only need
                      >a couple of hours a day. Last I looked there were
                      >24. Didn't hurt Steve Jones. It comes down to how
                      >bad do you want it. Period. Full stop.

                      Much easier said than done. Add in weight training, any medical maintenance (e.g. physiotherapy), travel time, etc. You now need much more than 2 hours per day and a very understanding employer.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: US Marathoners

                        So work and run. You
                        >only need
                        >a couple of hours a day. Last I
                        >looked there were
                        >24. Didn't hurt Steve Jones.
                        >It comes down to how
                        >bad do you want it.
                        >Period. Full stop.

                        Much easier said than done.
                        >Add in weight training, any medical maintenance
                        >(e.g. physiotherapy), travel time, etc. You now
                        >need much more than 2 hours per day and a very
                        >understanding employer.

                        I disagree. It really is just a question of how bad you want it and what sacrifices you want to make. So say 4 hours. That leaves 20. I've had this argument with people who tell me that they don't have time to do what they would like to do in their training if they lived a perfect world. I analyze their day and it usually is some pretty simple time management but they still don't like it. They just don't want it bad enough. And that's fine. Just don't blame anyone else then.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: US Marathoners

                          I agree, MJD. Most of the resistance to a commitment comes from runners who wrongly believe "can't" and won't" are synonyms.

                          As my grandfather used to tell me, "If you don't have the time to do it right the first time, how the hell are you going to find the time to do it over again?"

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: US Marathoners

                            I disagree that time or effort are an issue at all. It comes down to desire to compete at the distance. Does the US have the numbers of competitve distance runners who want to run a marathon that the Kenyans do? NO.
                            Does the US have the numbers who want to run a competitive marathon that it had in the 70s'/80's boom? NO. Are the guys we have trying to break into the international level putting in a serious effort to get there? YES.

                            We simply don't have enough trying. We must find out why. I beleive it is a combination of the percieved "African Superiority" combined with a poor collegiate system designed to produce as many short-term results within a 4-year span as possible with little interest in what happens to the athlete beyond their time in school. The later reason produces athletes who peak too early become injured and are disinterested by the time they are finished with college.

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