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Long jump observation -- more hitch v hang

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  • ajp
    replied
    Re: Long jump observation -- more hitch v hang

    >Like the High Jump, once an athlete has lost contact with the ground there is
    >nothing that can be done to alter the trajectory of the centre of mass. Of
    >course if the wind is blowing against the jumper it will shorten the distance
    >jumped. One enemy of long jumping is forward rotation at take off and the hitch
    >kick was developed to overcome that, on the principle that although the
    >trajectory of the Centre of mass cannot be altered after take off one part of
    >the body can be made to move by altering the positon of another. The only
    >voluntary movements that can be made after losing contact with the ground are
    >internal compensatory movements(for instance, one part of the body can be
    >lifted by lowering another part; one part of the body can be made to rotate
    >faster by making another part slow down) Note how some high jumpers use the
    >head to make the legs clear the bar. None of that answers the question of
    >whether hitch kickers jump farther than hangers.
    Robert Emmiyan, of course,
    >was a hanger, but then we can all quote figures to prove one thing or another.

    Well said -but allow me to take it one step farther. A rotation of the legs as in the hitch kick produces a counter rotation of the entire body (conservation of angular momentum) in the opposite direction. Thus the jumper has rotated backwards and in landing, his legs are lifted more to a horizontal position, which appears as a greater "stretchout" in the pit. In actuality, it is the rotation of the legs which has caused this. The hang jumper remains vertical in his jump and his legs on landing are never as horizontal when landing, thus not as long a jump. Look at Igor Ter Ovanesyan for a good example of this.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Long jump observation -- more hitch v hang

    it is absolutely true that nothing can be done to increase distance or flight pattern of the center of mass after takeoff. the key is to remember that it is the center of mass that cannot be changed. however, it is possible to move the body around the center of mass and place it in a position that is most favorable for maximum distance.

    think about it, if you center of mass (COM) is around your belly button, there is quite a bit of body on either side of it. the key is to land as if you were sitting on the floor with your legs in front of you and your body perpendicular to your legs, not in a pike position. the pike position puts your much of your body behind the center of mass (it ends up closer to your knees)and the sand contact comes to early (i.e. marion jones). the seated position will put you COM as far back into your hips as possible. as long as the leg collapse is proper, allowing the COM to complete its unalterable path through the sand contact made by your feet, you have essentially allowed it (your COM) to travel along its natural path. this is why you see so many jumpers looking like they are falling backward at landing.

    now, as far as a hitch or hang. the takeoff and initial movements(ie. knee drive thru last ground contact and lead leg recovery) SHOULD be exactly the same regardless of technique. this would mean that whichever style is most comfortable and allows the jumper to be in the most efficent landing position possible would be the best.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Long jump observation -- more hitch v hang

    As above post said we were all did hang technique in Russia. This is funny because we taught? by the man who perfect the hitchkick!

    All Russian jumper have same style in my day. Galina did sometime her own thing in the air but basically she just hang in a natural positioon? Our close rival DDR all did a kind of hitch motion but not really proper hitch.This is interesting that best two europe jumping country do complete doifferent style. I think we did this because of greater lift and angel of take off. We found doing hang and changing a little of the last few run up step we got good height. Some critical say this kind of heigt saying this stop the length but this was not Russian thinking. Soviet Union still dominate? top of women list over 7m. yes ok we have more athlete but very effectiv technique. All top Russian women do hang, Galina, myself, Yelena Belevskaya Khlopotnova ,Berezhnaya, Chen etc etc. Ok some now for Ukraine or Belorussian, but all train under Soviet flag mostly in career. Now Kotova do hang too and she does 7.42!

    It seem fashion in jumping is now hitch and not many train hang technique. This is sad and maybe why so many women not doing so good? It seem many women also not really have ANY style in air and do not do a proper style instead do their own positioon in air!

    Anyway other story can be interestin also. Russian official support Yelena Belevskaya for gold and not Galina! This drive Galina I remember this. We were all prepared for differenmt meet it seem, some for indoor, some for Cup meeting and for Seoul Olympic .Russian want Yelena to win this and not Galina. Even after world record 7.52 they still groom? Yelena for Olympic titel. This was the way it work. Galina jump so far in training up to 7.70 but she was very small physique and could not take all training requirement on the body.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Long jump observation -- more hitch v hang

    As to the best hitch vs hang, my modest list (short, as I havn't thought about it in awhile).

    Hitch:
    Capt Carl, simply the best.
    Powell, WR, unfortunatly, in Carl's era.
    Pedroso
    Larry Myricks

    Hang:
    Emmiyan
    Lutz (Stasi snitch) Dumbrowski

    I admit to having never seen Beamon live, so don't know his style. From stills of the 8.90, it looks hang, but I guess I havn't even really thought about the TV footage.

    One thing I read somewhere on hang/hitch is that most hangers use a kickout landing, and don't have fall back/drag problems to which hitchers are prey. In other words, hangers get all their jump.

    Is this really true?

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Long jump observation -- more hitch v hang

    You can't do anything in the air to make the jump longer, but you can do plenty in the air to make your jump shorter.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Long jump observation -- more hitch v hang

    I've never seen any definitive evidence on which is the more effective technique. Both are simply to stop over rotating after take-off. I think the athlete should just go with what feels more comfortable to them. The hitchkick is harder than it looks to actually do (I usually ended up spiking myself) and I've always thought that time spent on the technical-side of this element could be better spent on other things. Isn't Lamela a hang guy? And a certain BB? I'll admit I'm not much of an expert on the finer points of LJ techique so will admit my head maybe...

    Leave a comment:


  • gh
    replied
    Re: Long jump observation -- more hitch v hang

    Note that in another current thread we have as a guest one of the longest women jumpers ever, Yelena Sinchukova (Russia). She said this today, in case you aren't reading that thread, but had interest in this one:

    <<So many Russian jumpers when I was compeeting. We had best team but we all had to do same jump. No longer hitch? we trained to do hang. All of us do this jump but for some maybe this not the best. It was good for me and others but maybe not all.
    Now though not enough do hang! More top women can do this jump it is not so fashion now?>>

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Long jump observation -- more hitch v hang

    you're kidding me right? of course hitch allows you to jump farther. you get an extra knee drive if nothing else.

    Leave a comment:


  • jumpmon
    replied
    Re: Long jump observation -- more hitch v hang

    Fucking Lane 10 has a valid point. It is what is most natural for someone that generally yields the best results. I have done both hang and hitch. Hang was more natural for me and I had better results. As far as being able to increase your distance with either style, physics takes over and there is nothing you can do to increase the distance, but there are several things that can occur to decrease the distance. Over rotation, dropping your feet at landing, and over extension causing you to fall back on the landing to name a few. There's more to jumping than simply running down a runway and leaping into sand which is what a lot of coaches think. This topic could go on forever and is interesting.

    Leave a comment:


  • fucking lane 10
    replied
    Re: Long jump observation -- more hitch v hang

    I jumped with a single hitch for my career (PB well over 8.20) but my coach wanted me to do the double hitch. We argued about the things things mentioned above, I suggested that once your in the air, you can't get "extra distance" by usiing a double. His arguement was that your hips stay up longer with a second cycle. I argued my landing suffered because I wasn't comfortable landing the opposite way and not getting my legs out ( I wasn't able to do a full second hitch anyway, it was more a wiggle). This was something we played with this in pre season a few times. I came to the conclusion that I was better trying to get the best out of my single than doing something not natural for me. Others who have been succesful at changing were Powell, Walder (used to hang), Pedroso in his early years (WJ), Dilworth (still a bit messy). I honestly believe the "continued running" does help you think of running through the board and not "taking off" which can lead to breaking.

    Intersting topic

    Leave a comment:


  • jhc68
    replied
    Re: Long jump observation -- more hitch v hang

    I respectfully disagree with both Isaac Newton andt tafnut... First, Isaac, the idea that nothing that happens in the air after take off can alter the distance of the jump is patently absurd. At the moment of take off the energies applied determine the maximum potential length of the jump, but the jumper's body movements will, to a large degree, influence where the jump actually ends. Landing technique, or lack of it, is critical, as is balance during the hitch-kick or hang. (If you have any doubts about this just take a look and some of Marion J's brutal, painful jumps!) Then, taf, I believe hitch-kicking does not necessarily help in putting a jumper into proper landing position. If the hitch is not completed it hinders landing. It seems to me that the important thing after take off is to maintain balance and upright posture during flight, and that some individuals simply feel more comfortable with one method or the other to maintain balance.

    Leave a comment:


  • tafnut
    replied
    Re: Long jump observation -- more hitch v hang

    BV,
    I remember the thread and it was I who was adament about the 'once you're in the air thing.' The FACT is that once the h velocity and angle of attack are set, there is NOTHING that will affect the arc described by the CG of the body. HOWSOEVER - hitting the board with max h vel and taking off at the best AA is the key. Maybe your question is really: does the preparation for the hitch optimize these two variables, as opposed to the hang. That should NOT be the case, but it may well be in some jumpers. I also agree that the gyrations accomplished by hitchers seems to set them up better for the landing than the hang. So perhaps we need more input from top-level coaches and jumpers on whether THEY have noticed a difference. I learned the hang early on and the hitch just seemed like too much to learn to achieve unsubstantiated improvement.

    Leave a comment:


  • Olegi2
    replied
    Re: Long jump observation -- more hitch v hang

    Like the High Jump, once an athlete has lost contact with the ground there is nothing that can be done to alter the trajectory of the centre of mass. Of course if the wind is blowing against the jumper it will shorten the distance jumped. One enemy of long jumping is forward rotation at take off and the hitch kick was developed to overcome that, on the principle that although the trajectory of the Centre of mass cannot be altered after take off one part of the body can be made to move by altering the positon of another. The only voluntary movements that can be made after losing contact with the ground are internal compensatory movements(for instance, one part of the body can be lifted by lowering another part; one part of the body can be made to rotate faster by making another part slow down) Note how some high jumpers use the head to make the legs clear the bar. None of that answers the question of whether hitch kickers jump farther than hangers.
    Robert Emmiyan, of course, was a hanger, but then we can all quote figures to prove one thing or another.

    Leave a comment:


  • Per Andersen
    replied
    Re: Long jump observation -- more hitch v hang

    >Basically, when you hitch kick, you maintain your speed all the way through the board more so than if you set up for the hang.

    That's equally possible IF you use the Hang correctly. What you described is an inexperienced "Hang" jumper who anticipates the hang and who consequently gets nothing out of the
    lead-leg.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Long jump observation -- more hitch v hang

    Basically, when you hitch kick, you
    >maintain your speed all the way through the
    >board more so than if you set up for the hang.

    A-HA!!! I said something like that, too. That going into a hitch would help your take off better. Was told that I was wrong.

    At any rate, if there is a list of best hitchers and best hangers, I know which one will be better.

    Leave a comment:

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