Webb's Time(Don't look if you want to watch the video)

[jeremyp]

[Dear Mr. P,

First of all, your post has so many typos and grammatical errors it was difficult to grasp your message.

I was right! Insult is your game. Be puerile somewhere else!

Secondly, even though track filberts enjoy little better than extrapolating numbers and bending time, one cannot with any degree of certainty tell what one athlete would have done in a 1500-meter race had it been a mile, or vice versa. They are two completely different races with different pace scenarios and strategies.

Nobody knows what Webb would have done in the AR mile had he run 1500 instead.

Furthermore, just because he may have been only 18th on the list at 1500, that does not correlate to how he might rank if those others ahead of him on the 1500 list had run miles.

There is an old expression with which you may be familiar, that goes like this: figures don't lie, but liars figure."

If you want to place the man in perspective then do it by using available figures. Do not make up crap, extrapolate, hypothesize and ruminate.

What the young man did was nothing short of sensation and he deserves to receive the accolades available based on what he did, not on what you characterize he did.

I've read your post 3 times! I still don't understand it.

So let me say this, clearly: Webb's race was great. Webb is not yet the runner Scott was, AR or not. Scott ran his AR 25 years ago! Nick Wilis beat John Walker's 1500 NZR in 2005. No-one that I know of is comparing him to Walker. Breaking a record is fine and dandy, but as Ovett said: "(Records) are made to be broken, on the other hand an important victory (OG, WC) that's what interests me. The battle of man against man is the only thing which counts." What Webb did was sensational for Webb. In the larger picture it was merely another nice step to possibly the sensational.

To you the fact that Scott's AR was 2d fastest of all time in 82, while Webb's is 8th (and in a largely uncontested distance since the 80's) means nothing intrinsically, is an argument that would have few takers. To you the fact that Webb's mile cannot be compared intrinsically to the 1500, is also an argument that would have few takers. Enjoy the minority status!

[15mph]

Bias against Webb (Europeans just ignore him)

Or is this a subtle reminder Webb still has more to accomplish before everyone in Europe sits up and takes notice...?

difficult call

a world lead in 3'30.5 shouda got him some bargaining power with euro meet organisers, but obviously didn't

can they still refuse him after a 3'46.9 mile ?

There is still an unfair bias against American milers. This could be due to jealously or just plain anti-Americanism. Despite running the world's fastest 1500 and mile, the IAAF does not have Webb even ranked in the top fifty!! Webb maybe the only miler in history to run under 3:47 for the mile and 3:30 for the 1500 and not even get a world ranking. I guess this is another strange statistic in the odd career of Alan Webb.

The BBC sports website made no mention of Webb's run. Well, I guess the British cannot accept they no longer rule the mile. Instead of giving Webb credit they simply choose to ignore him. To Europeans Webb is a threat.

[az2004]

it's called being a eurosnob...

just get over it...

why waste time with their opinions...

enjoy webb for what he's doing this year...

they're behind the curve, which frequently is a problem...

ya gotta show them over and over, and then they might deny it

[eldrick]

Re: Bias against Webb (Europeans just ignore him)

The BBC sports website made no mention of Webb's run. Well, I guess the British cannot accept they no longer rule the mile. Instead of giving Webb credit they simply choose to ignore him. To Europeans Webb is a threat.

don't worry, bbc isn't everything in britain

mention of it was made on the teletext service of the main commercial broadcaster in this country

he's run faster than the 2 greatest icons of distance running in this country over a mile - coe & ovett

he's getting attention over here...

[Cyril]

Re: Bias against Webb (Europeans just ignore him)

[
The BBC sports website made no mention of Webb's run. Well, I guess the British cannot accept they no longer rule the mile. Instead of giving Webb credit they simply choose to ignore him. To Europeans Webb is a threat.

That is just a little less attention than he got in the US where he got almost no mention.

I can't beleive that about the rankings. All I can figure is that his most recent marks haven't been figured in yet.

[gh]

It's tough to get big rankings points if the meets you run in don't bring much/any premium with them. Paris, for example, is the only European GP fixture that Webb has run in.

Looking at IAAF Rankings of a different sort, note that in the WAT standings Webb & Lagat were 9-10 when the day began, but after Monaco are down to 11-12. (Lagat, by the way, is No. 5 in the IAAF Rankings)

[Johnny Canuck]

it's called being a eurosnob...

just get over it...

why waste time with their opinions...

enjoy webb for what he's doing this year...

they're behind the curve, which frequently is a problem...

ya gotta show them over and over, and then they might deny it

I'd not get so defensive over this.

For one, the mile is pretty well a non-event in Europe - the 1500m is the big event, so if and when Webb starts to dip under 3:30 - or, more impressively, under 3:29 - then more notice will be given, no doubt.

For another, in contrast to when Scott set his AR, when the time he ran would have been a world record only 11 months earlier, Webb's mark last would have been a world record 22 years ago, ditto to his recent 1500 m PB. I'm sure that if some French sprinter set a new national record of 9.92 in the 100m to great local excitement, they'd excuse the collective yawn from America and other places where that mark has long been surpassed.

As for Webb's conspicous absence on the IAAF world rankings, that stems from Webb's relative lack of high-quality 1500/mile races over the past year and his lack of major international wins until Paris in the past month. In fact that win is one of the biggest point-getters one can get in the scoring system, but since he ran NO big races last year, his point total is tiny. Contrast that to Lagat who won some big meets last year - like Reiti, (170 points there, I think), 3rd in Paris (another 130 points), 3rd in Lusuanne, 2nd in Stuttgart, 7th in Zurich (still worth 90 points), 2nd in Gateshead. For Lagat to keep his high ranking - he's 5th with 1313 points - he's gotta score in a lot of meets this summer as he has almost nothing so far.

The IAAF has a rather complex ranking system, but what seems clear to me is Webb's lack of big-name races thus far disqualifies him. To rank, he needs over the past year to have ranking scores from his best six performances. But since the focus is on honours won, only his win in Paris - which was a golden league victory - gives him signicant points. 170, if I read the tables correctly, not including the credit for the fast time he ran.. (http://iaaf.org/worldrankings/how2006.html) As an idea of honours won over records, if Webb had set a world record in Belgium, he would have got an additional 50 points. But since the meet itself ranked so low in terms of importance, he probably would have ended up with only about 75 points total! (before time credit is added)

Winning the National Championship only garners Webb 60 points. As for those other meets, the one where he ran 3:51 and more recently at Belgium, those, by my readings, are are very low-scoring events in terms of ranking. He may get only 45 points or less for those runs.

These numbers are added to his performances points, so he can add good points for his times based on the 2005 table, but he so far is missing out on the big points that come in the big meets.

A Golden League win is one of the biggest point-getters available. Winning the World Athletics Final is even bigger. And if Webb manages a medal at the World Championshipss, then that is 230/260 or 300 points!

So, as soon as Webb puts in another good performance in some of the other Golden meets, or some of the other Grand Prix meets - and he only needs to finish in the top 8 to rank in most - he won't appear on the lists.

Take a look at fellow Canuck (to me) Kevin Sullivan. He rarely actually wins in the big meets, but he consistently puts in a) quality times in the 3:34 range or better and b) places in the big meets, giving him points. He's currently ranked 15th with 1237 points.

At the end of September, unless Webb has a season-ending injury, I'd be shocked if he wasn't in the top 10 ranked 1500/milers in the world.

I think we all know Webb is a very talented and capable guy. If he continues on his current trajectory, he will be noticed in Europe. But to do so, he has to pay his dues over there. Winning in Paris was a HUGE step towards that.

One more thing, something which has not been really underlined. Alan Webb is WINNING races, not setting PBs or national records while following a crowd of speedsters across a finish line. THAT to me is as important - more so, really - than the times he has run.

And I'm sure that if Steve Ovett was asked, after talking of the primacy of winning over fast times, what has been Webb's biggest accomplishment so far? I'm sure he'd say it was not running 3:46 against a bunch of unknowns, but beating some of the top guys in the world in Paris, even if the time was "only" 3:50.54.

[eldrick]

For one, the mile is pretty well a non-event in Europe

not as much as you think

oslo always kicks off the golden league with the "dream mile" & it's well anticipated

i'm sure the euro promoters woud have no problem seting up mile races for webb now, seeing as he's now proved an elite runner for it - he won't get one in golden league other than oslo, but i'm sure iaaf level 1 meets woud bend over backwards if he asked them to set up mile races instead of 1500 ones

don't forget, he's now the 2nd ever fastest non-african ever, for the event within shouting distance of cram's non-african record of 3'46.32

[gh]

For one, the mile is pretty well a non-event in Europe

not as much as you think

oslo always kicks off the golden league with the "dream mile" & it's well anticipated....

Actually, in the 15+ years of the Golden League, Oslo has rarely led off. Used to be Paris or Rome, I believe, with Oslo usually in early July. And not always a mile. Recently, wasn't one in '03 or '04, for example. (Indeed, '03 didn't have a 1500 either!)

[Johnny Canuck]

For one, the mile is pretty well a non-event in Europe

not as much as you think

oslo always kicks off the golden league with the "dream mile" & it's well anticipated

i'm sure the euro promoters woud have no problem seting up mile races for webb now, seeing as he's now proved an elite runner for it - he won't get one in golden league other than oslo, but i'm sure iaaf level 1 meets woud bend over backwards if he asked them to set up mile races instead of 1500 ones

don't forget, he's now the 2nd ever fastest non-african ever, for the event within shouting distance of cram's non-african record of 3'46.32

Well, does a promoter in the United States, when given a choice setting up a mile - which everyone is familiar with - or a 1,500 choose the latter? I think we know the answer to that. The reverse is true in Europe. Doesn't mean we won't see a 1500 in the States or a mile in Europe, but unless an athlete is scaring a world record these days, we won't see many. Which is why Webb ran his race in an obscure corner of Belgium. I've been following the sport for some 30 years and I've never heard of that meet before, have you? I heard that he couldn't convince some of the big meets to put on a mile, so that is where he ended up.

As for being close to the non-African record, again, I can't see too many non-Americans getting terribly excited about that as a) the main event is the 1500, not the mile and b) regional records don't generally get the track fan's heart pumping with excitement. "What? We might see an Oceanic record set in that obscure running event? Buy me front row seats!" I think not.

Ask yourself: Would the prospect of seeing a top European 400 m runner set a Euro record for the event (it's 44.33) run up a lot of ticket sales in America when we have the Wariners and Taylors and Meritts scaring sub 44?

I'm not trying to diminish what Webb did. He's a smart guy and he knows he is playing to different audiences. To impress the European track cogniscenti, he's gotta win races like the one in Paris. THAT told a lot of people that Webb had arrived. But he's also got his American audience who generally don't know the sport as well and put a lot of emphasis on a familiar but less important race - the mile. And in the minds of many Americans, his 3:46.91 got THEM to sit up and take notice.

Webb had several goals at the start of the season. He has accomplished several of them in dramatic fashion and though there is predictable nit-picking (his 1500 is "only" 18th or whatever), in my mind Webb is letting the world know that he has arrived. And he has also proven that he can BEAT the top guys in the world.

This is very exciting news for Americans who have been without a top miler for many years. What might impress Europeans in terms of times is Webb going under 3:28.95, the European record in the 1500. He's not far off of that. I hope that Webb will be appearing in some of the big meets in Europe as that's where he's most likely to put in some times which will shame the times he has already run.

[gh]

The only motivation any European meet has (and has had for many years) for putting on a mile is if there's a chance to claim the World Record.

OK, one other motivation: Oslo had dream mile for years in part because ABC paid good money for it, and because main sponsor Mobil is an American company (which didn't at the time--and maybe still doesn't?--sell guess in Norway!)

[eldrick]

For one, the mile is pretty well a non-event in Europe

not as much as you think

oslo always kicks off the golden league with the "dream mile" & it's well anticipated....

Actually, in the 15+ years of the Golden League, Oslo has rarely led off. Used to be Paris or Rome, I believe, with Oslo usually in early July. And not always a mile. Recently, wasn't one in '03 or '04, for example. (Indeed, '03 didn't have a 1500 either!)

thanks for the facts & not fiction ! :P

[az2004]

ranking systems are generally behind the curve...

watch webb run this year, and he's a clear TOP 5 1500 male right now...

plus there are always ways to GAME any system, identify what gets you the bonus points and focus your racing in those areas....

webb is a medal contender at 1500 in osaka....

he made the final in helsinki, had injury woes 2006, and has shown FORM better than any he's ever shown.

komen will be a factor, as will ramzi, but i do NOT see them head and shoulders above webb...

webb, now, has many ways to race...

the webb at helsinki , who tried to run away early, had NO finish like the last 400 he now has...

does webb have the strength to move early, yet finish fast???

would that be his tactic??

or will he move with 500 to go??