Anyone else ever "skip" the 1:44s?

[Zat0pek]

Here's one: Has anyone ever skipped the 1:44s AND 1:43s?

I'm thinking Coe had a 1:45-ish PR before his first 800 WR of 1:42.33 in '79.

EDIT: Never mind; his previous PR was 1:43.97

http://track-superfan.blogspot.com/2006 ... rs_21.html (scroll down)

[eldrick]

Everyone keeps coming back to Ryun! Yes he was a great runner, yes he had the potential to run faster, and no, the 800m record by Snell was not a week one.
But how can one state he would run 3:27 (6 seconds inside his pb!) in an ideally paced race on a modern track based on a 5k pb of 13:38!?

we've been thru this before :

his 3'33.1 was worth 3'30 - 3'31 with perfect pace

it was on a cinder track which disadvantage to a 1st generation synthetic, posters here who ran on both give as upto 1s/lap

that gives him a 3'27 - 3'28 on say a munich '72 track

much faster on a modern mondo

this has absolutely nothing to do with his 5k background - we are not extrapolating to 3k/5k or 10k, just adjusting the actual race he ran that day

It's ok to give Ryun the benefit of a 6 second improvement, but not Coe a 2 second improvement based on a specific mathematical equation? Surely with inferior basic speed than Coe, Ryun would need far greater endurance and should have been able to run almost 13:00 for 5k, if he were capable of 3:27; which he never did. If an equation is applied to one, then surely it must be applied to all.

looking at coe's 3'47.33 with 2 laps of 58, it's reasonable to assume 3'46-flat, which does yield him a mid/high 3'28 in '81

speed issues between coe v ryun aren't of much relevance ( but i'd figure he have to have better endurance, as he was unlikely to have low-45 speed of coe - just that ryun's endurance may only have lasted to ?2k ( which he never ran in his prime ) - certainly no need to have it to 3k, let alone 5k ( kipketer's endurance didn't even last to 1k !!! ) :

kipketer ran faster than coe & he didn't have coe's 1k/1500 endurance & on paper, not coe's speed, but in the end, he ran faster

[Cyril]

[( kipketer's endurance didn't even last to 1k !!! ) :

kipketer ran faster than coe & he didn't have coe's 1k/1500 endurance & on paper, not coe's speed, but in the end, he ran faster

Great point. Kipketer was a perfect example of an event-specific athlete and event-specific training. His target was 800 meters and he hit it perfectly. He had no need for 3k or 5k (or even 1500) strength....he only needed strength enough to make it 2 laps at an extremely fast tempo. Developing 1500 meter strength would have dampened his ability to run as fast as he did for 800m.

[gh]

[quote="deanouk"].... Surely with inferior basic speed than Coe, Ryun would need far greater endurance a.../quote]

I believe we've been down this road before. I don't think there's sufficient evidence to make a blanket statement that Coe had more basic speed than Ryun.

[yung4evr]

Everyone keeps coming back to Ryun! Yes he was a great runner, yes he had the potential to run faster, and no, the 800m record by Snell was not a week one.
But how can one state he would run 3:27 (6 seconds inside his pb!) in an ideally paced race on a modern track based on a 5k pb of 13:38!?

It's ok to give Ryun the benefit of a 6 second improvement, but not Coe a 2 second improvement based on a specific mathematical equation? Surely with inferior basic speed than Coe, Ryun would need far greater endurance and should have been able to run almost 13:00 for 5k, if he were capable of 3:27; which he never did. If an equation is applied to one, then surely it must be applied to all.

I suppose someone is now going to tell me that Ryun's 5k time would have been 40 seconds faster on a proper track!!

I wouldn't say Ryun's speed was inferior to Coe's. If I'm not mistaken, they both ran in the high 46 range for 400.

[deanouk]

I wouldn't say Ryun's speed was inferior to Coe's. If I'm not mistaken, they both ran in the high 46 range for 400.

I believe we've been down this road before. I don't think there's sufficient evidence to make a blanket statement that Coe had more basic speed than Ryun.

Coe ran a 45.5 relay leg in '79 running for the UK National team. Thats worth low 46 from standing start. In '81 he would have been faster. Eldrick claims low 45 ability; though personally (and Im not in disagreement with Eldrick here) I feel it was more like high 45's. Regardless, there is no statistical evidence to purport the claim that Ryun was as fast as that. I see him as more like a Cram figure, who could wind it up from a long way out and maintain a high speed for long periods, rather than an out and out sprinter.

The bit about endurance was just a question in relation to Eldrick's formula for extrapolating potential from under and over distance performances.

we've been thru this before :

his 3'33.1 was worth 3'30 - 3'31 with perfect pace

it was on a cinder track which disadvantage to a 1st generation synthetic, posters here who ran on both give as upto 1s/lap

that gives him a 3'27 - 3'28 on say a munich '72 track

much faster on a modern mondo

Lol! Yes we have, and I can't see any benefit in re-iterating my thoughts on the subject as I don't wan't another slanging match! Let's just say that I agree with your sentiment, but not quite the final time.

[tandfman]

Less than two weeks after Coe set his first WR at 800m, he ran a 400m in 46.85.

[malmo]

The 1:44.9 was his first 2-lap final of the year and only the eighth of his life.

Just more reasons why he's still atop my all-time hypothetical mile race.

"I did not know that."

Makes Ryun even more impressive.

[gh]

[...Coe ran a 45.5 relay leg in '79 running for the UK National team. Thats worth low 46 from standing start. ....

The only 400 evidence we have on Ryun is that he ran 46.9y on a frosh distance medley a few weeks after his 18th birthday, on dirt.

Give him the 4.5 years Coe had on him at that juncture, put him on a National 4x4 on a synthetic track, and I say he runs 45-point as well.

I'm not saying he's faster than Coe; I'm saying I suspect they're about the same.

Interestingly enough, for the Brit miler who could show "speed" I was always quite taken by Ovett, whom I recall as having one of the best gear shifts I've ever seen.

[eldrick]

Lol! Yes we have, and I can't see any benefit in re-iterating my thoughts on the subject as I don't wan't another slanging match! Let's just say that I agree with your sentiment, but not quite the final time.

seeing as ron clarke has estimated a 3/4s lap difference between cinders & ist generation synthetics ( & that is good enough as gospel for me ), that makes ryun's 3'33.1, initially converted to 3'30 - 3'31 that day on cinders with ideal pacing & with 3/4s lap advantage for cinder-synthetic

-> ~ 3'27.2 - 3'28.2

if his '67 run had been on an early '70s on synthetic track

we haven't even yet considered faster mondos of a coupla decades later nor modern training methods !

let's see how many doubters we get for the above to support your estimates ( whatever they were )

[Daisy]

we haven't even yet considered faster mondos of a coupla decades later nor modern training methods !

eldrick, are you posting this stuff from the meet? If not, why not? Pavey is currently trying to run the sprint finish out of the competition. Interesting race. Kastor looks strong too! Fleshman timed it perfectly. Great finish.

[eldrick]

we haven't even yet considered faster mondos of a coupla decades later nor modern training methods !

eldrick, are you posting this stuff from the meet? If not, why not? Pavey is currently trying to run the sprint finish out of the competition. Interesting race.

i didn't go this year ( don't tell taf, but i read about supposedly low standard of the meet this year & decided i'd be better of watching at home with a few beers ! )

[Daisy]

we haven't even yet considered faster mondos of a coupla decades later nor modern training methods !

eldrick, are you posting this stuff from the meet? If not, why not? Pavey is currently trying to run the sprint finish out of the competition. Interesting race.

i didn't go this year ( don't tell taf, but i read about supposedly low standard of the meet this year & decided i'd be better of watching at home with a few beers ! )

At least you're not missing the action but how could you miss your local meet! You'll regret it. That 3000m was defintiely a good race, for one. Although someone need to tell the WCSN commentator that they're not competing for medals. Apparently Fleshman just won the gold medal.

[eldrick]

as a rough estimate for ryun's ideal race on 1st generation synthetic in '67 might be

3'27 - 3'28

the question is, how quick couda his 800 been at the time with supposed 45.5 - 46.5 ability :

3'27 - 3'28 with :

46.5 -> ~ 1'42.2 -1 '42.4

46.0 -> ~ 1'41.7 - 1'42.0

45.5 -> ~ 1'41.2 - 1'41.5

i certainly couda seen a < 1'42 for him, but how much below ?!

[az2004]

seeing the ryun mention, isn't watching and commenting on webbs every move this summer very reminiscent of ryun...