What are the best XC courses in the US?

[malmo]

You are just delusional!

From Sports Illustrated:

“The six mile course for the NCAA championship was laid out on Penn State’s 36 hole golf course by track coach Harry Groves. It was wide and well-marked, with major hills at 2.2, 4, and 5.2 miles, and no tight turns to slow the pace. The feeling among the coaches killing time in the lobby of the Nittany Lion Inn was that the course was a fair balance of hills and flats, unlike last year’s at Indiana University, where the advantage went to the hill climbers."

“I have watched every NCAA championship since 1956,” said Groves, “and the only fair course was the one at Kansas in 1965 and 1966. This one is my masterpiece.”

“It’s a great cross-country course,” said Gary Wienke, the Illinois coach. “Deceptive. People think it’s going to be easy because it appears to be gently rolling and downhill overall (referring to the first two miles). But a good share of the footing is difficult. There is little fairway and lots of rough, and much of it on a sidehill slant. It will require a lot of concentration.”

The Start: Wide and open, almost a half mile before a long, wide radius U-turn – about what one would see at a horse track.

The Surface: Penn State, being a land grant college, has an Agricultural School and a Turf School. From the pictures you can see the results evident on the lush fairways. However, the fairways comprised less than two thirds of the course, the rest being a 30 to 50 foot wide perimeter grass path that cut through and around a corn field, then alongside the edge of the rough on the final hill. That footing was hard and firm, with some lumpy footing like you would see in a cow pasture.

The Terrain: Except for the mile around the perimeter of the corn field (which was flat, with a few dips), the course was generally rolling, with three long (600m to 800m) hills at 2.2, 4 and 5.2 miles. As the coaches noted, on the hills there was a mixture of side-slant, rough and lush fairways.

The Markings: Having been to all of the NCAAs in the previous 20 years Groves spared no cost in marking the course. He had been planning for it years before he actually got the bid. In the past, courses were marked with sticks, bamboo or metal flagpoles and were placed right on the line, causing athletes to run into or even run over the markers. Groves marked the 1975 course with 10 foot brightly painted four by fours (many of them permanent) – a full four feet outside of the wide painted boundaries that marked both sides of the course. When someone suggested that anchored four by fours might be dangerous if an athlete ran into one, Harry said (paraphrased of course), “If they do run into one of my poles they’ll be disqualified, because they ran off of the course.”

Spectator friendly: Spectators who watched the start had many options of where to watch next - the 1, 1 ½, 3, 3 ½, 5, and finish, or could do the ½ mile, 2 ½, 5 ½ mile marks ( or ½, 2 ½, 4, 5 and finish).

I haven’t run on, nor have I ever seen, nor have I ever heard of, a better cross country course. I'll reiterate, it was the template for all courses to follow. That's my opinion.

[jney]

what about the Levern Gibson course? In Terre Haute obviously the NCAA likes it, and it is XC dedicated. very wide, fencing all the way through.

It might not have the history......yet.....but it's a pretty sweet course.

[Justin Clouder]

What the hell is wrong with you? I've given you my opinion. I've given it 4 or 5 times now.

You've repeatedly said "The Penn State course is a template for all other courses."

Malmo's use of "template" here is perfectly correct. He means that it was ideal in all ways and that all other courses should model themselves on it. Simple enough, not really worth a 2-page pissing match.

Justin

[Brian]

[Malmo's use of "template" here is perfectly correct. He means that it was ideal in all ways and that all other courses should model themselves on it. Simple enough, not really worth a 2-page pissing match. Justin

If you have ten things similar in design the one that is the "template for all others"--the model--must always be the first one. Georgie says Penn State is the first one, the template. I voiced an opinion that others--giving just one example off the top of my head--did things similarly before Penn State did. For "daring" to do so, I was then told I was neither intelligent nor experienced enough to have that opinion.

Not a pissing match--being pissed ON, which George Malley does all the time and what some of us no longer tolerate.

Deal with it.

[malmo]

If you have ten things similar in design the one that is the "template for all others"--the model--must always be the first one. Georgie says Penn State is the first one, the template. I voiced an opinion that others--giving just one example off the top of my head--did things similarly before Penn State did. For "daring" to do so, I was then told I was neither intelligent nor experienced enough to have that opinion.

Not a pissing match--being pissed ON, which George Malley does all the time and what some of us no longer tolerate.

Deal with it.

Brian Gaus you are a compulsive idiot. A template doesn't have to be first at anything, it just has to be a design from which others are shaped or followed. I'm sorry you disagree, you're the one who needs to deal with it.

[26mi235]

I have not read all of the later posts but my take is that I see where both are coming from and it is not quite the same place although it might appear to be. There were a number of elements that, together, made that race course and race a template for others following. That does not mean that earlier races did not have some or a number of those elements, just that they were not put together in the manner. That is necessarily a knock on the earlier races, because some of the elements for the 1975 (?) race might not have been important, say in a smaller race or a shorter one.

[Brian]

A template doesn't have to be first at anything, it just has to be a design from which others are shaped or followed. I'm sorry you disagree, you're the one who needs to deal with it.

Maybe it would have helped had you lowered yourself to explain your point instead of simply repeating a statement over and over. I DID ask you for enlightenment, remember? But you had to be a jerk, as always. Maybe it isn't what you say but how you say it. Ya 'think?

[malmo]

A template doesn't have to be first at anything, it just has to be a design from which others are shaped or followed. I'm sorry you disagree, you're the one who needs to deal with it.

Maybe it would have helped had you lowered yourself to explain your point instead of simply repeating a statement over and over. I DID ask you for enlightenment, remember? But you had to be a jerk, as always. Maybe it isn't what you say but how you say it. Ya 'think?

You're wrong. Go ahead and re-read the exchange. I stated my opinion. You flippantly challenged my use of the word template, to which I repeated the words "Yes, template." Then you went completely ballistic. I do not feel the obligation to write a proper thesis every time I post. It is a hobby to me, something that is supposed to be enjoyable.

If it's any concession to you, I'm glad I did write up the description and will pass it on to my colleagues to see if I missed anything.

[malmo]

I have not read all of the later posts but my take is that I see where both are coming from and it is not quite the same place although it might appear to be. There were a number of elements that, together, made that race course and race a template for others following. That does not mean that earlier races did not have some or a number of those elements, just that they were not put together in the manner. That is necessarily a knock on the earlier races, because some of the elements for the 1975 (?) race might not have been important, say in a smaller race or a shorter one.

You Wisconsin guys get it. That's why you're so damn successful at cross country.

[Dutra]

Re: What are the best XC courses in the US?

Stalk? No. Respond in kind to your BS when you throw it out there? YOU BET, GEORGIE!

Yes, read the thread from top to bottom. Observe your off-the-hook response just because you don't agree with me. Go ahead, re-read the thread, irrational stalker guy.

It's not that I don't agree with you, it's that you said something you couldn't prove and then tried to spin it so that it's my fault I'm not "smart enough" or "experienced enough" to be able to agree with you (otherwise I SURELY would).

As usual, Georgie, it wasn't what you said as much as the crappy way you said it. Every so often, I choose to call you on it.

And that particular response has been a long time coming, Georgie. The swish of air you hear is a lot of others nodding their heads.

You were the poster who took this thread down the tubes. The rest of the board seemed to be mature enough to understand malmo's use of the word "template" but it was important enough for you to challenge his termination. Congratulations on whatever it was you were trying to accomplish.

Had you stated that you felt the Minnesota course was better for whatever reasons instead of challenging the terminology for whatever reason...I doubt the converstation goes down this road.

Kudos....you got your attention.

[Tinman]

Nice pictures of the race at Penn State U.!

Malmo - I haven't been out East in a long time. Does Penn State U. still use the course that Harry designed?

[DrJay]

Hey malmo. speaking of XC courses, in July I posted some pics I took at the 1981 US XC trials race in Louisville. Not sure if you saw those:

http://mb.trackandfieldnews.com/discuss ... ght=sawyer

Some guy had posted pics he took of the Montreal marathon and I thought what a great place to share running photos we have taken over the years, but it hasn't caught on.

We ran a few HS meets at that park, E.P. Sawyer Park, with our 5K course being one big figure 8, going a bit further east than I recall that trials race going, incorporating a hill or two that might not have been on the trials course. The park used to be too open for my liking. You could see too far and at times realize what a long way you still had to run. Plus a few of our meets there were in mid-September and it really seemed to bake, moreso than at other courses, with temps in the mid 80s and high humidity. In the years since 1981, the trees have really matured and they don't cut all the grass. It's a pretty place now. They still run HS meets there and now U. of Louisville is using it, Ron Mann bringing along a good DI program there, and they even hosted the Big East conference meet there last weekend.

[Helen S]

I was always partial to the Miller Team Cross country race course held in Marquette Park in Gary, IN on the Saturday closest to Christmas for 15 years. Northwest Indiana's largest, and maybe only, money race.

The course was a wheel measured 1 mile loop. Start and finish were on the top of a substantial hill in the middle of the park. I would estimate spectators could see the runners from that vantage point for around half of the loop. The course was all grass, except the steep sand downhill. Two major hills, the finish hill was around 400 bottom to top, the other was a steep maybe 50y with a sharp turn at the top before the steeper sand descent.

Weather varied from the first year with at minus 15F with 25 mph steady winds and 8 inches of new snow to nearly 60 and sun on some years.