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  • #16
    Re: Title IX

    Yeah, I think probably the reason Webb dropped out of college athletics is because of the inequities of Title IX !

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Title IX

      sad thing about Blinn...I recall Maurice Green, Jon Drummnond (pre TCU) Henry Neal all went there. Am I correct? Am I confusing them with Barton County?

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Title IX

        henry neal, and tim montgomery as well as many other olympians, but not drummond nor greene

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Title IX

          MY MAJOR POINT
          "Minor Sports" CAN AND DO
          >GENERATE LARGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY. Let's say I ran track or swam for a
          >university. I may not have been All-American but I had a good time, made great
          >friends...competed hard etc....I took my education and what I learned running
          >track and developed into a successful (and WEALTHY) doctor, lawyer, engineer,
          >CEO whatever. I look back on my days running or swimming and I say to
          >myself...."I had a great time playing sports for my college and I am going to
          >contribute large sums of money every year becasue I love the team." Multiply
          >this by hundreds or thousands of men and women who pass through the sports
          >system...and that is revenue generating!! That revenue pays for endowed
          >coaching positions and nice training facilities for all teams...track included.

          This scenario is somewhat possible, though not a reality. Very few people give those large sums of money, or can even afford, to smaller sports. Here at my school, football is the only sport that generates money, and it supports every other sport with its earnings. Smaller sports cannot generate any significant amount of money period, no matter what the alumni give. They don't get tv endorsements, they don't get the advertising. Hell, the only people that attend normal track meets, other than conference or nationals or the big relays, are parents and close friends. Not 70,000 fans like football. I will venture to say with much confidence that no small sport generates any significant amount of money for any school. There are not enough alumni to donate that much money for any of those sports.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Title IX

            To further expand upon that, it costs us about $20,000 to take the team on a road trip to stay overnight one time. How many meets do you think we go to in a season? That money will never be covered by alumni donations.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Title IX

              HARVARD HAS AN ENDOWNMENT THAT
              >T DWARFS MANY small nation GNP's. Where is this money coming from? Certainly
              >not solely from football or basketball.

              Yes...IT IS all about money...and
              >Harvard (and some others as well) have figured out the best way to generate
              >revenue through sports. Problem is that nearly all DI football powerhouse
              >administrations have not figured it out yet.

              First off, not that this is relevant, but Harvard does not have an endowment greater than any small nation, and even if they did, what is your point. Stating the obvious, that Harvard grads are a lot richer going into the university than most other schools (i say "going into" to stop any possibility of someone claiming they're rich because they went to a good school) is not racist. They have a huge endowment because on average, the people who go there are rich. So to say the other schools have it wrong in some way is a completely wrong assessment, as other schools don't a) have rich kids attend, b) create the types of networks created at Harvard, c) have the reputation and academic strength of Harvard that leads to high-paying jobs for their graduates. So what would you have these schools do? - Just spring up and become a bunch of Harvards? How would that go; i.e. what would that entail? Please inform me, as I would love to turn the small college I went to into the next Harvard.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Title IX

                In response to these comments...
                "First off, not that this is relevant, but Harvard does not have an endowment greater than any small nation,"

                Here are some stats to support my premise that Harvard has a LARGE endowment. I believe it is in the range of 10-12 Billion dollars...yes...billion dollars
                GNP of some small Third World nations in dollars
                Guyana $652 million
                Chad 1.541 Billion
                Malta 3.559 billion
                and this just randomly flipping through the 2004 Britanica Almanac

                In response to this:
                "Smaller sports cannot generate any significant amount of money period, no matter what the alumni give."
                You write this with such conviction yet my team endowed two head track coach positions (and many more positions I hope in the future), a brand new all-weather track with bleechers and stands, complete renovations on a weight training center just for track in the field house and I just received word that our athletic dept. raised $62 million of a 100 million goal for sports from...alumni...including but not based solely on football or basketball alumni.

                In response to:
                "To further expand upon that, it costs us about $20,000 to take the team on a road trip to stay overnight one time. How many meets do you think we go to in a season? That money will never be covered by alumni donations."
                We used to do a phonathon to raise money from alumni and I think we probably raised $20,000 in one night. There were about 20 plus of us and I think it would be a conservative estimate to say we each solicited $1000 plus. This phonathon takes place once a year and it does not include the money not resulting from the phonathon.

                In response to :
                "They have a huge endowment because on average, the people who go there are rich"

                Yes on average the students are from richer families but by how much? Certainly this could not account for the drastic difference in endowments and varsity sports offered. Being rich does not necessarily mean you will write a check. I would dispute the premise that the students are necessarily that much richer. Harvard and the Ivy's contribute much, much more financial aide per student than DI powerhouses. I would say that the kids on the Harvard team (and their students) receive more financial aide per person in dollars than the kids at Nebraska. Of course the tutition at Harvard is greater but that is a another argument.

                In response to:
                "I would love to turn the small college I went to into the next Harvard."
                No..you would never be Harvard if you are a small college but there is no reason it could not be like say...an Amherst or Williams
                Here's how....
                Up your academic standards, strengthen your alumin connections so your athletes are successful on and off the field whether they turn pro or not.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Title IX

                  Don't blame Title IX, blame the BCS. After all, they're aren't sharing the $$$$$ they're raking in from football. And isn't that $$$$ supposed to be going to the general athletic fund for the schools?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Title IX

                    Hey Neuro- It is refreshing to see some well thought out literate posts on this list.
                    Could someone please do the search to find some published studies on big time college athletic programs and whether they actually make any money? The last one I remember reading was about 30 years ago, and as I recall, I believe only two schools actually made any money from their football programs. I really feel most of the discussion on this topic is mere speculation unless we are able to quote actual figures.
                    Maybe even T&F news could do a feature on this, as it directly effects the sport in numerous ways.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Title IX

                      It's not speculation. I know for a fact our football team supports all other sports in the department. Our athletic program is self-sufficient because of it.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Title IX

                        http://www.allbookstores.com/book/0805018646

                        I believe in the above book, Murray Sperber says there are approx. 5-7 schools whose football teams operate in the black.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Title IX

                          People seem to be dwelling on the premise that Football can or does pay for other sports...even very intelligent people. Although this can be disputed...I will even concede that fact that Football or B-ball CAN pay for other sports....not necesarily that it DOES at every DI school. Many people seem to believe that that may happen only at 5-7 schools. However, Atheltic Department accounting books are not the point of my post.

                          My major point is still that MINOR SPORTS as well as football. can and do generate large amounts of revenue for Athletic departments. Look at Notre Dame. Thye just got a contract for 9 million a year from NBC I believe to broadcast games. That is a lot of money. My Alma Mater.....Ivy League with no ATHLETIC SCHOLARSHIPS just sent me an email thanking all contributors/Alumni for raising 62 million dollars with a goal of 100 million just for our athletic department! I have no worries about my track team(s) Our men's and women's head coaching positions are ENDOWED positions thanks to our alumni. I hope assistant postitions would be ENDOWED as well For example THE JOHN SMITH SPRINTS COACH or JOHN PUBLIC WEIGHTS COACH. 62 million is a large suma s well! Incindentally..I have admire ND for their ability to play big DI sports AND maintain "MINOR" Sports. THey clearly have their priorities straight for the most part. Perhaps they support their football team ac ertain way and because of their high academic standards and graduation rates, their "MINOR" sports generate revenue as well. Then again..ND has big endowment as well and they have not canned Men's or women's track.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Title IX

                            " I know for a fact our football team supports all other sports in the department. Our athletic program is self-sufficient because of
                            it.

                            Or so they might like you to believe? I saw a great sticker the other day- "Don't believe everything you think." Can you quote figures? Have you seen the books? What school is this? Are the figures available through "right to know" laws?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Title IX

                              What do they always say? - 1% of our population controls over 50% of our the wealth? SOmething like that.

                              It's dangerous when you try to generalize an experience or situation at the country's most elite and affluent learning institutions by applying it to "the rest of us" - the 99% who have not had the opportunity to share in this elite experience of never ending endowments and cash flow. What do you think the average annual salary of Harvard grads looks like next to that of S.U.N.Y. or C.S.U. graduates?

                              "My major point is still that MINOR SPORTS as well as football. can and do generate large amounts of revenue for Athletic departments."

                              Besides Notre Dame, Where? What Schools? What Sports? You would hard pressed to find any program beyond a handful of football and men's basketball programs and possibly a few women's b-ball teams that are capable of generating enough revenue to meet their budgets. That is why several schools, schools who realize their alumni are not going to endow the school with billions, have brought it to the students. Several So. Ca. schools have passed initiatives to increase student fees as a way to support the athletic department.

                              It's an everyday, hand to mouth, struggle for the minor sports. TV contracts and huge endowments are not the norm, they are the definite exception.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Title IX

                                "It's dangerous when you try to generalize an experience or situation at the country's most elite and affluent learning institutions by applying it to "the rest of us" - the 99% who have not had the opportunity to share in this elite experience of never ending endowments and cash flow. What do you think the average annual salary of Harvard grads looks like next to that of S.U.N.Y. or C.S.U. graduates?"

                                Is it dangerous to generalize to the "rest of us" that putting more money into good schooling and high academic standards first in the university while using athletics as a tool (for student development) will ultimately allow the student body as well as the University to prosper academically and financially? Should we tell our kids that getting an athletic scholarship will benefit them more in the long run than getting an academic scholarship. I do not think that students at Ivy League schools are THAT MUCH smarter than others. However, I do believe that there is a prevailing attitude at Ivy League schools as well as some others mainly Notre Dame, Stanford etc..etc...that have not forgotten what the purpose of a Unveresity education is and should be. I ran track with guys who who were from less than wealthy families who received enormous financial aide packages thanks to scholarships, grants etc..etc.. You could call them scholarships ...but they were not contingent on them running track or playing any other sport. One of my best friends got a full athletic scholarship to go to a BIG TEN school to run track. He turned it down because he knew if he hurt himself, failed to run to expectations..or just decided he wanted to be a regular student....he would have been sent packing back to his hometown with no education or anything. This rings true espcially in track when the athletic scholarships are limited.
                                Last time I checked...SUNY was still playing in DIII sports except for Buffalo....however, I think the SUNY effort to become DI is misguided and will ultimately hurt the school academically adn financally.

                                I think it is incredibly naive to think that having a powerful DI football team will ultimately lead to a finacially well off school or athletic department for that matter. Ask the students who required 5 years to finish college not because they failed classes...but because there were not enough professors, TA's etc..etc..to provide all the classes for a popular major. The money went to the football team.

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