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  • Kevin
    replied
    Re: Title IX

    If you think 85 football scholarships is a bit much, USA Junior Colleges can offer up to 18 basketball scholarships for men alone. You only dress out 12!

    Title IX has simply hastened the demise of many minor sports at public colleges and universities in the US. With the growing reluctance to pay taxes, and the increasing costs of sports in this country (for safety reasons as well as the general cost of fielding a team), minor sports have been facing an oncoming wreck for some time.

    It does little good to wring our hands over the losses of these programs. It would be wiser to put our heads together and discuss ways to support athletics and cross-country at troubled institutions. It seems that a great deal of energy and time have already been spent lamenting Title IX, with little thought given to how the sport might extricate itself from the situation it faces today.

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  • Malc
    replied
    Re: Title IX

    Title 9 is a reason the minor sports are drying up.
    I don't believe it's a lack of money issue, even though very few athletic programs are in the black. The issue as I see it, with title 9 is the women's sports must be funded in the same ratio as the population of the school. (Only fair) When you add the football budget into the equation, there aren't enough women's sports to spend the money. And few opportunities left to balance it on the men's side. If you are female and at college, its hard to get avoid earning a letter. When my son was a candidate for soccer, the coach said they could find the money through boosters any day, but women's sports was already funded to the hilt. I agree with the poster, that the NFL can get by with half the scholarships. I suspect that social engineering has a large part to play. At risk of being accused of showing the race card, reducing football scholarships, reduces the minority opportunities. And many can double in the sprints and jumps. XC suffers, swimming too. Soccer also.

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  • MJD
    replied
    Re: Title IX

    Pretty good story but isn't this girl taking a position away from a guy?

    ""I've never heard of a [female] quarterback. It's highly unusual," said Mike Thorpe, the football co-ordinator for the Ontario Federation of School Athletic Associations, which governs high school sport in the province."

    http://www.canada.com/national/national ... fa5&page=1

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Title IX

    I never accused any BIG TEN track coach or any coach of malevolence. You seem to be projecting as well. Track guys for the most part graduate, don't get arrested and make something of themselves after graduation. I am sure that track coaches are concerned about their guys. However, you are incredibly naive to think that a "Minor SPort" like track isn't kicked around by the football team at many schools. Do you think the track coach at any school likes being restricted to 12 something scholarships. This policy was given to them by the Athletic Department which is often run by the Football team and so-called "Big Sports."
    I bring up dollar figures because everyone is "absolutely sure there is no way " a "minor SPort" can support itself...and they are absolutely sure "football supports all other sports." Where are their or your figures?

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Title IX

    Why do things get personal here? I can get personal as well.....

    Mr. Business owner
    How does seeing reality and turning down an athletic scholarship show "not having balls."? My buddy certainly has more integrity than you as neither I nor him would ever place ever stoop to the level of calling telling people to "grow balls." This is what my profession calls "projection." As for condescension, I made it very clear I do not consider Ivy league grads THAT MUCH SMARTER than others. It is only the prevailing attitude that universities should still be about education first and sports second. How is this condescending? As for bragging about money...at least the money to MY athletic department is goinq toward REAL STUDENTS. If you think that is in poor taste...what about schools that publish their television contracts or football players that appear with their agents at the draft ready to negotiate. As for your bootstraps....perhaps if YOUR priorities were straight when you were in school...you may have gotten money to go to a school where education was still more important than the football team and you would not be the bitter man you are now. I am not from a fabulously wealthy family but my parents valued education and allowed me to run track as well....this attitude has and will benefit my university.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Title IX

    Could someone please do the search to find some published
    >studies on big time college athletic programs and whether they actually make
    >any money? The last one I remember reading was about 30 years ago, and as I
    >recall, I believe only two schools actually made any money from their football
    >programs. I really feel most of the discussion on this topic is mere
    >speculation unless we are able to quote actual figures.

    Unfortunately, I don't remember the reference, but I saw an authoritative study done a couple of years ago that found 30 of the 108 Div IA football programs made money, mostly at the top of the Pac 10, Big 10, Big 12 and SEC.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Title IX

    Perhaps the real issue is whether athletics should be attached to institutions of higher education in the first place. Since that's the way it is in the US, and we basically have to live with it, I think it is good to discuss and debate how to make it better. "Minor" sports are suffering, primarily at D1 schools, due to a combination of things: Title IX; budgets; trying to 'keep up with the Joneses' in all types of facilities (for football and basketball); uncaring and lazy administrators; unqualified coaches; and on and on and on.

    Certainly the D3 model PROVES that educational institutions CAN support a myriad of sports without massive reveunes. How do they do it? Do those institutions believe that athletics is an important part of their institution, and in believing that, provide adequate budgets, equipment, facilites, and coaches? I think the answer is easily seen in the fact that nearly no D3 and D2 schools drop 'minor' sports. (The NY Tech situation sort of proves my administrators point).

    Take a look at the schools that have dropped track/xc in the past few years. Inmost cases, there was a confluence of factors: uncreative adminstrators who look for an easy way out; coaches and programs that were worn down over the years by the lack of creativity and support; departments that evolved into associations that were 'separate' from their institutions adminstratively.

    D1 schools need to treat athletics as fairly as they treat the business school, or the pshcyology department: provide them funding, and expect that they will provide and produce a quality product. but don't expect them to 'make money.' if they do, that's a plus. After all, schools dont expect the psychology department, the band, or the debate team to be self-sustaining.

    Sorry, this intended to be my two cents worth. Now I'M way over budget.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Title IX

    Neoropsychiatrist - not to bitch - but your writings are a bit condesending to the masses of us who pulled ourselves up by our bootstraps. I don't go around subtly telling people how much money I and the alumni from my school donate back, I don't brag about my successes, and I don't pretend to believe I am somehow smarter than someone else simply because I have a degree (I took 5 years to get it - not because of "no professors" but because I wasn't bustin' ass like I should have been). People don't care what your profession is here on these boards (unless your a coach - or Jim Spivey) or how much $$ you have. Give it a rest.

    El Supremo

    P.S. Your friend who passed on a scholorship to a big ten school because he "might get hurt and have to go home" needs to grow some balls and face the world head on. Sam Bell and the other big ten coaches I know are great guys - their passion for running does not mean they (or their schools) don't care about the athletes.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Title IX

    "I do not think that students at Ivy League schools are THAT MUCH smarter than others"

    We've definitely more than proven that statement.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Title IX

    "It's dangerous when you try to generalize an experience or situation at the country's most elite and affluent learning institutions by applying it to "the rest of us" - the 99% who have not had the opportunity to share in this elite experience of never ending endowments and cash flow. What do you think the average annual salary of Harvard grads looks like next to that of S.U.N.Y. or C.S.U. graduates?"

    Is it dangerous to generalize to the "rest of us" that putting more money into good schooling and high academic standards first in the university while using athletics as a tool (for student development) will ultimately allow the student body as well as the University to prosper academically and financially? Should we tell our kids that getting an athletic scholarship will benefit them more in the long run than getting an academic scholarship. I do not think that students at Ivy League schools are THAT MUCH smarter than others. However, I do believe that there is a prevailing attitude at Ivy League schools as well as some others mainly Notre Dame, Stanford etc..etc...that have not forgotten what the purpose of a Unveresity education is and should be. I ran track with guys who who were from less than wealthy families who received enormous financial aide packages thanks to scholarships, grants etc..etc.. You could call them scholarships ...but they were not contingent on them running track or playing any other sport. One of my best friends got a full athletic scholarship to go to a BIG TEN school to run track. He turned it down because he knew if he hurt himself, failed to run to expectations..or just decided he wanted to be a regular student....he would have been sent packing back to his hometown with no education or anything. This rings true espcially in track when the athletic scholarships are limited.
    Last time I checked...SUNY was still playing in DIII sports except for Buffalo....however, I think the SUNY effort to become DI is misguided and will ultimately hurt the school academically adn financally.

    I think it is incredibly naive to think that having a powerful DI football team will ultimately lead to a finacially well off school or athletic department for that matter. Ask the students who required 5 years to finish college not because they failed classes...but because there were not enough professors, TA's etc..etc..to provide all the classes for a popular major. The money went to the football team.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Title IX

    What do they always say? - 1% of our population controls over 50% of our the wealth? SOmething like that.

    It's dangerous when you try to generalize an experience or situation at the country's most elite and affluent learning institutions by applying it to "the rest of us" - the 99% who have not had the opportunity to share in this elite experience of never ending endowments and cash flow. What do you think the average annual salary of Harvard grads looks like next to that of S.U.N.Y. or C.S.U. graduates?

    "My major point is still that MINOR SPORTS as well as football. can and do generate large amounts of revenue for Athletic departments."

    Besides Notre Dame, Where? What Schools? What Sports? You would hard pressed to find any program beyond a handful of football and men's basketball programs and possibly a few women's b-ball teams that are capable of generating enough revenue to meet their budgets. That is why several schools, schools who realize their alumni are not going to endow the school with billions, have brought it to the students. Several So. Ca. schools have passed initiatives to increase student fees as a way to support the athletic department.

    It's an everyday, hand to mouth, struggle for the minor sports. TV contracts and huge endowments are not the norm, they are the definite exception.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Title IX

    " I know for a fact our football team supports all other sports in the department. Our athletic program is self-sufficient because of
    it.

    Or so they might like you to believe? I saw a great sticker the other day- "Don't believe everything you think." Can you quote figures? Have you seen the books? What school is this? Are the figures available through "right to know" laws?

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Title IX

    People seem to be dwelling on the premise that Football can or does pay for other sports...even very intelligent people. Although this can be disputed...I will even concede that fact that Football or B-ball CAN pay for other sports....not necesarily that it DOES at every DI school. Many people seem to believe that that may happen only at 5-7 schools. However, Atheltic Department accounting books are not the point of my post.

    My major point is still that MINOR SPORTS as well as football. can and do generate large amounts of revenue for Athletic departments. Look at Notre Dame. Thye just got a contract for 9 million a year from NBC I believe to broadcast games. That is a lot of money. My Alma Mater.....Ivy League with no ATHLETIC SCHOLARSHIPS just sent me an email thanking all contributors/Alumni for raising 62 million dollars with a goal of 100 million just for our athletic department! I have no worries about my track team(s) Our men's and women's head coaching positions are ENDOWED positions thanks to our alumni. I hope assistant postitions would be ENDOWED as well For example THE JOHN SMITH SPRINTS COACH or JOHN PUBLIC WEIGHTS COACH. 62 million is a large suma s well! Incindentally..I have admire ND for their ability to play big DI sports AND maintain "MINOR" Sports. THey clearly have their priorities straight for the most part. Perhaps they support their football team ac ertain way and because of their high academic standards and graduation rates, their "MINOR" sports generate revenue as well. Then again..ND has big endowment as well and they have not canned Men's or women's track.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Title IX

    http://www.allbookstores.com/book/0805018646

    I believe in the above book, Murray Sperber says there are approx. 5-7 schools whose football teams operate in the black.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Title IX

    It's not speculation. I know for a fact our football team supports all other sports in the department. Our athletic program is self-sufficient because of it.

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