The Wind & Oliver's 12.95 [split]

[Marlow]

I realize that wind can disrupt a stride pattern, but as gh suggested, under some conditions a wind of 2.0 can be very helpful. I was (and still am), assuming that for him, last night, the wind was favorable.

For someone like Trammell, in a tight race, I'm pretty sure it would be disastrous. I have no idea whether it helped, hindered or did nothing for Oliver. We shall see how he does in other wind conditions with his new-found excellence (I'd love to see an interview in which he explains his new 'condition' - hint, hint, MtnVu Guiz).

P.S. Hey, 1/2 Miler, hit the X button on the top right of your post, before someone else posts.

[Speedster]

Based on his size and the speed he came off the last hurdle, I say the wind was very helpful. Check out the video at WSCN that's on Youtube.

[Marlow]

Based on his size and the speed he came off the last hurdle, I say the wind was very helpful. Check out the video at WSCN that's on Youtube.

Since no world-class hurdler can allow himself a full sprint-stride, a 2.0 wind only makes one chop even more, but on the flip side, someone with superb turnover can benefit from that tailwind. Someone like TT who relies on great stride length to run a fast 100, does not benefit as much (if at all) from a tailwind.

[Marlow]

Before we get too carried away, let's remember that the wind was +2.0. It doesn't get any better than that, at least not for a record run.

You know better than that. Their stride pattern is critical and a 2.0 is disruptive. He had to chop his steps more than normal, but obviously he is an excellent shuffler, as Skeets calls it.

from his interview home-page-linked:

I had to back off the hurdles a little bit due to the wind at my back.

[tandfman]

OK, you win.

[Marlow]

OK, you win.

That's the spirit!

I would posit that the 2.0w neither helped nor hindered him. He had to 'back off' the hurdles, but the wind was pushing him ahead at a nice healthy clip.

[olorin]

OK, you win.

That's the spirit!

I would posit that the 2.0w neither helped nor hindered him. He had to 'back off' the hurdles, but the wind was pushing him ahead at a nice healthy clip.

No way!!!
I do agree that wind has less effect on the hurdles than normal sprints but it is still a positive factor!
If wind has effect on performances then we should expect that:
1. The average wind reading should be positive for the top marks
2. It should be even more positive at the top end of the marks. This is because some results are impossible without favourable wind. For example no one can run today sub 9.8 with a strong negative wind. Hence the sub 9.8 sample is bound to have only positive wind. In contrast there are few athletes that can run sub 9.9 with negative wind hence it is likely to have lower average wind.

Result for the 100 show that the above in correct:
Average wind for top 1,000 performances: 0.55
Average wind for the top 50 performances: 0.72

For the 110h we have:
Average wind for top 1,000 performances: 0.35
Average wind for the top 50 performances: 0.52

So - wind has a positive effect on 110h yet the effect is less than in the 100

[26mi235]

I think that the wind helps most: 1) at the finish, and 2) at the start, including the first hurdle or two before good speed is reached. After that, there is the complication of the spacing of the hurdles. In addition, it depends on whether it is a crosswind with a forward component or a milder following wind; if the former, it does not help so much as the crosswind makes the timing of the hurdles a bit more difficult.

[Marlow]

OK, you win.

That's the spirit!
I would posit that the 2.0w neither helped nor hindered him. He had to 'back off' the hurdles, but the wind was pushing him ahead at a nice healthy clip.

No way!!!
I do agree that wind has less effect on the hurdles than normal sprints but it is still a positive factor!
If wind has effect on performances then we should expect that:
1. The average wind reading should be positive for the top marks
2. It should be even more positive at the top end of the marks. This is because some results are impossible without favourable wind. For example no one can run today sub 9.8 with a strong negative wind. Hence the sub 9.8 sample is bound to have only positive wind. In contrast there are few athletes that can run sub 9.9 with negative wind hence it is likely to have lower average wind.
Result for the 100 show that the above in correct:
Average wind for top 1,000 performances: 0.55
Average wind for the top 50 performances: 0.72
For the 110h we have:
Average wind for top 1,000 performances: 0.35
Average wind for the top 50 performances: 0.52
So - wind has a positive effect on 110h yet the effect is less than in the 100

You forget that the wind affects EVERY hurdler differently (even more so than the 100, where the guy with the biggest 'radar profile' gets the most help), because of stride length. Littler guys and/or those with shorter strides can be helped a GREAT deal. But the longer the stride, the less it helps (and can easily hinder), so your 'averages' above don't help us with any one individual hurdler, e.g., Oliver.

[marknhj]

I have a very hard time believing any argument suggesting that a guy who pr's by 0.13secs with a 2.0+ wind wasn't helped significantly by it. Actually, I don't believe it.

In his interview with hurdlesfirst.com he says the difference between his 12.95 and 13.08 in Greensboro was his finish. In both races he wacked hurdle 8 (although in different ways), but finished faster in Doha. Don't know what the wind reading was in Greensboro but he says it was also a tail wind. When you lose momentum hitting a hurdle a maxed out wind up your ass has to be rather helpful, as it was getting there in the first place (and then, of course, there's the run into the line).

Of more interest to me than the usual never-ending debate here whether or not a maximum wind helped him much (of course it did), is that he ran 13.08 after hitting hurdle 8 with his lead leg and was slower in his finish than he wanted, followed by running 12.95 with an awful reaction time. These suggest to me that he is indeed in WR shape.

But, he doesn't believe in peaking...............

[Marlow]

But, he doesn't believe in peaking...............

I would never admit this to my athletes, but 'peaking' in the field events, and even the hurdles, is waaay over-rated, at least for most athletes (those who have presumably mastered their technique and simply have to get faster/stronger). We have seen too many athletes hold a 'peak' for an entire outdoor season, including the OG/WC, for me to buy into the notion that fitness is a precariously steep hill, that you must crest at juuuust the right time.

The distance events are an entirely different matter, but even sprinters can keep it together much longer than most of the literature suggests.

And what is especially ironic is that the T&FN Annual Rankings mostly ignore the peaking phenomenon (which DOES exist for some athletes), insisting you must beat people at the beginning and end of a season (win-loss record being more important than marks :roll: ).

[Daisy]

Before we get too carried away, let's remember that the wind was +2.0. It doesn't get any better than that, at least not for a record run.

You know better than that. Their stride pattern is critical and a 2.0 is disruptive. He had to chop his steps more than normal, but obviously he is an excellent shuffler, as Skeets calls it.

How do you know that? Possibly +2 is optimum for his stride length? Could that be why his time was so fast. Regardless, its really impressive given the reaction time too.

[Marlow]

How do you know that? Possibly +2 is optimum for his stride length? Could that be why his time was so fast. Regardless, its really impressive given the reaction time too.

I didn't know until he said he had to 'back off' the hurdles, but the vast majority of elite 110Hers (under 13.30) do have natural sprint strides (even at the less-than-full-speed that they are going at, i.e., 13 vs 11 seconds for 110m) longer than ideal for the event, just by virtue of their native sprint speed.

[Daisy]

I didn't know until he said he had to 'back off' the hurdles

Was his quote not "back off a little"?

OK, so optimum for him is +1.8? I still think it helped him.

[sub13]

its me again. the ? seems to be does wind help or not help, and if it does help how much. well i can only speak about my personal experiences and opinions.
wind helps sometimes and sometimes it doesn't depending on how i feel or what kind of shape im in. for me right now a 2.0 tailwind would help me, but in august it would hurt me.
the reason it would help me now is because right now im not as explosive or as quick as when im at my "peak". the wind would push me along a little so i wouldn't have to work as hard to run fast and at no time would i have to "reach" in the first part of the race (between 1 and 2). so that would allow me to get into a fast rythm earlier than i would otherwise. august would be a different story.
in august i am at my "peak" so im very explosive and very quick. on a still day i have a little trouble handling all the speed i can bring to the hurdle and managing the take off distance to the hurdle. so a tailwind woluld put me too close and i would have to slow down to make sure im 7'9" away at take off.

my philosophy is that with the men's sprint hurdles, anything you run with wind you can and will run without the wind. the hard part about running a fast time in the hurdles isn't about running fast its about having the technique and reflexes to handle the speed. so maybe the wind helped david maybe it didn't. he should run 12.9 or faster again this year.

on another note: i am curious to know the difference in top hurdlers' pr vs. windy pr