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The downfall of Western European T&F

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  • Jaack
    replied
    Originally posted by EPelle
    Twice?
    Over at Iaaf I started life as:
    Jack

    which then became

    Jackk

    which then became

    Jaack

    which then became

    Jaaack

    You really weren't allowed to say a bad word about Thanou and Marion! :cry: :idea:

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  • EPelle
    replied
    Twice?

    Leave a comment:


  • Jon
    replied
    Originally posted by Flumpy
    Originally posted by Brettboy
    Germany had an atrocious games, but it's peaks and troughs - I'm sure they'll come back again another year and win medals in the womens JT (again), the mens and womens SP, the mens PV...

    I think events where Germany has a strong tradition, like the technical throwing events, have seen countries like Belarus overtake them.
    Why have you changed your name again? :?
    Because he was banned.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sinafan
    replied
    Originally posted by Powell
    Did DLV decide they were not going to win medals on the track and start to invest in field events only?
    These thoughts are in fact in the mind of the sport ministry though the DLV doesn't think it a good idea. We have a certain amount of good track athletes (Unger, Schielke, Sailer, Schlangen, Möldner, Mockenhaupt, Blaschek, Nytra, Tilgner) who are however unlikely to make the TOP 8 in Berlin. Bolm's entry on her homepage after her last injury reads like a farewell and Marx' 400mH glory lasted only a year, she startet at the NC barely fit in order to qualify for the relay.
    The relays naturally can only be finalists under these circumstances, not really medal candidates. The female sprint relay is nearest, but they need Schielke badly, not only for the additional tenths, but also for a bit more fighting spirit. It's awfully frustrating to see and read the interviews with the girls who are very happy and so on instead of being frustrated that they had the big chance to snatch a medal with a minimum improvement over their season PB.

    BTW, Hentschke has retired.

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  • eldrick
    replied
    unfortunately not been back in past 20y :cry:

    it's not as friendly as inviting as the '60s kenya ( i'm told - too young to remember )

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  • Madd Marine
    replied
    That's interesting Eldrick. I didn't know you were Kenyan (I joined the board a few weeks ago).

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  • eldrick
    replied
    thanks, any info woud be appreciated

    my dad was his police boss for a few years & i got it from him that there was no coach around for long periods, certainly whilst doing his day job ( don't know about evenings/weekends ) - kip was cut little slack apart from extra chickens "to keep his strength up" & some time-off during day to go run

    he passed on a long time ago & i never asked him about kip, just what came up casually - i kick myself for not asking him properly :cry:

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  • Madd Marine
    replied
    Originally posted by eldrick
    Originally posted by Madd Marine
    Most of the successful "early" Africans were for the most part coached by Europeans and/or used European methods
    it's been mentioned abebe's coach was european, however, greatest kenyan of them all - keino, i'm not sure about

    i know about his dayjob - he used to combine policeman duties with training & there was no coach around him during his normal weekdays as he had to work & train at same time, often many miles from civilisation out in the bush - he was given leeway to train more & do less policework, but he had to do some, otherwise no pay

    he obviously had a coach during training camps for the big games, but i'm pretty certain he had no one to keep an eye on him during all the hard training he did as backbone of his preparation
    I believe Kip said he picked up training info from some British runners and coaches in Kenya and then learned more once he was good enough to go abroad. I think Velzian was helping him also (I have an article somewhere, I'll dig it up at some point). Keino has done some great work helping out children in Kenya over the years. He seems to be a big-hearted man. Has he been advising Kiprop? Someone told me that, but I don't know if that's true.

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  • eldrick
    replied
    Originally posted by Madd Marine
    Most of the successful "early" Africans were for the most part coached by Europeans and/or used European methods
    it's been mentioned abebe's coach was european, however, greatest kenyan of them all - keino, i'm not sure about

    i know about his dayjob - he used to combine policeman duties with training & there was no coach around him during his normal weekdays as he had to work & train at same time, often many miles from civilisation out in the bush - he was given leeway to train more & do less policework, but he had to do some, otherwise no pay

    he obviously had a coach during training camps for the big games, but i'm pretty certain he had no one to keep an eye on him during all the hard training he did as backbone of his preparation

    Leave a comment:


  • mark
    replied
    I had no idea of Prokhorova ever having tested +ve until German Wikipedia threw this up IAAF News July 25th 2006.

    Any ideas what it was for ?

    Leave a comment:


  • az2004
    replied
    in the usa, t&f fans tend to be older...

    is this true too in western europe, or does the generation gap NOT exist

    Leave a comment:


  • Flumpy
    replied
    Originally posted by Brettboy
    Germany had an atrocious games, but it's peaks and troughs - I'm sure they'll come back again another year and win medals in the womens JT (again), the mens and womens SP, the mens PV...

    I think events where Germany has a strong tradition, like the technical throwing events, have seen countries like Belarus overtake them.
    Why have you changed your name again? :?

    Leave a comment:


  • Madd Marine
    replied
    Most of the successful "early" Africans were for the most part coached by Europeans and/or used European methods. They didn't just run around playing games. The rise in African success began as track was hitting the skids in popularity in Europe. While I believe there is no doubt E. Africans have a higher percentage of talented people when it comes to the 3k thru the 10k - amd a fair percentage of them actually give running a go, there are no doubt more than just a couple of European descended guys with the innate talent or ability to run a sub 13 5k or what have you. They probably aren't involved in our favorite sport. They probably are damn good at Halo or Crysis on the Xbox or PC - or they're mountain biking or what ever. Look at the turn out for National Cross Country events in GB. I can remember an article in a British paper a few years ago lamenting the fact that only a couple hundred kids or so were lined up for the National XC when back in the late 70's to the early 80's the numbers were in the thousands, then they began to decline rapidly. Many people also point out the sudden surge in fast times by the Africans with certain individuals with apparently shady pasts and shadier character getting involved coincided with the arrival of EPO etc but that's for another thread or board. Soccer is a huge culprit these days in nabbing some potential talent, it's a far bigger call now then it was a couple of decades ago, even in countries that were always soccer mad. I couldn't help but notice the gasp and then cheers when Beckham appeared during the Closing Ceremonies in Beijing. Maybe KB could get a roar like that in Addis Ababa or maybe Bolt could receive the same in Kingston, but Soccer is King. In the US the X-Games 'stars' are more well known than Tyson Gay or Jeremy Wariner.

    I suppose it is frustrating for a lot of distance fans right now, and the lack of confidence in the few Western runners out there (I won't get into sociology here) doesn't help. It's along the lines of the frustration these days among the Kenyans when the Ethiopians with their smaller numbers in terms of "team size" come out and knock them silly.

    It isn't only the distance events that are in decline in the West however. Overall participation and interest in the sport seems to be down. There are so many things going on that I guess a simple way to put it is to say that the attention of youngsters in the US and Western Europe is divided, although there are other factors, including that fact that with more of the world competing, everyone's share of the pie becomes smaller. Look at what's happened in boxing. Some claim for instance that the heavyweight division is dead because it's no longer ruled by inner-city black Americans. More of it has to do with the sport expanding - it was in decline by the 1940's in fact, and for decades most of the people fighting were from poor urban areas of the US with small pockets here and there around the world also contributing fighters. Now the sport has taken off - also helped by the rise of MMA I believe. With that, the heavyweights are now bigger and stronger, and strength and some other factors have become more of a premium than speed and other skills. The E. European heavyweights are simply far stronger than their US counterparts, but very few people like to admit this or comment on it. The fighters know this however. In the lower weight divisions from 150 lbs on down, Hispanics have almost completely taken over just as from 150 lbs on up most of the champions are now of European extraction, despite American TV doing its best to give the impression that the status quo is still in place, that the US rules the ring. Unlike a shortage of kids getting into track in the West, there isn't a shortage of fighters in the US, the gyms are more crowded than ever. It's more competition. Even if more kids in the US or W. Europe get into track, there is going to be more competition out there.

    So in track, we have more people competing from some areas, along with a drop in competitors and interest in other places, like W. Europe. I'm not sure what the sport could do in the West to increase popularity - unless the money handed out becomes as outrageous as it is in other sports. The mindset that's in place among a lot of people will have to change also - coaches in many sports slot whites these days just as blacks were and are slotted, and there is a lot of "can't" told to white youngsters. I doubt Jeremy Wariner is the only white guy out there with the physiology that allows him to pull the trigger on a sub 44, but how much of that "talent pool" has been ignored or just not been interested in the sport because they are told or believe they can't do something? I think a lot of kids of all stripes have been affected by this type of thinking in many sports, and in track, it's the pale kids who get the brunt of this type of thinking. On the other hand, I have little doubt more than a few black kids in the US get this if they decide they want to be a pole vaulter for instance.

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  • croflash
    replied
    Originally posted by Brettboy
    Well the first thing the DLV needs to do is change it's ridiculous selection policy. The cut off was way too early, insisting on two qualifying marks was simply daft, and targetting certain qualifying meets just restricts where the athletes compete - they need more international competition, but instead they focus on the german meets.

    Tilgner ran sub 52 over 400m, and on that form she should take at least 0.5 off her 400mh PB, which is 55.7

    Lindenberg and Nwachwkwu may not be elite, but they are world class, and only 21. The latter's 51.5 relay leg was 1.1 fasTer than her PB, (take note, TBO!) and shows there is talent there.
    It looks like we have different definitions of "world class". I won't consider anything but sub 51 world class and even that might not be enough. There are only a handful worldclass athletes in each discipline and none of the German sprinters, actually anyone on the track, belongs to that category.

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  • richxx87
    replied
    Originally posted by eldrick
    rich

    did same apply to kenyans of '60s/'70s ?
    I do not know the answer to that. I'm sure others here know who trained the likes of Kip and co. Like I said, though, it probably would have occurred regardless, but Abebe was the first guy. The one who really opened the world's eyes to the possibilities, especially those of his fellow Africans.

    Leave a comment:

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