The downfall of Western European T&F

[Brettboy]

Well the first thing the DLV needs to do is change it's ridiculous selection policy. The cut off was way too early, insisting on two qualifying marks was simply daft, and targetting certain qualifying meets just restricts where the athletes compete - they need more international competition, but instead they focus on the german meets.

Tilgner ran sub 52 over 400m, and on that form she should take at least 0.5 off her 400mh PB, which is 55.7

Lindenberg and Nwachwkwu may not be elite, but they are world class, and only 21. The latter's 51.5 relay leg was 1.1 fasTer than her PB, (take note, TBO!) and shows there is talent there.

[croflash]

They also have young talents like Janin Lindenberg & Sonia Nwachwkwu, both just 21, who have run 52.9 and 52.6 this season. With Marx back from injury, and looking at Hoffman's 50.1 from the heats in the 4x4, they could have a half decent 4x4 team, capable of making the final again, but definately not a medal threat.

Which is still light-years away from the elite, same for Jonna Tilgner. There is no professional environment to be an athlete in Germany right now and unless that changes - basically until more money is available - it's not going to get better. The standards should be a lot higher than they are and I wish the officials and media would focus less on doping allegations and concentrate on getting back to where they once were.

Now that we have reached the lowest point imaginable you would think that there are going to be major changes, but I'm not even sure if that is really that going to happen.

[Brettboy]

Yes, they are probably going to be stronger in Berlin next year, but their talent pool has become much shallower in recent years. There is very little to get excited about in running events in general - and women's sprints in particular are shockingly weak these days. No one under 23.5 at 200 this year :shock: Did DLV decide they were not going to win medals on the track and start to invest in field events only?

Yes, the women's sprints have been really poor. I think there are a few reasons for this: for starters their dope testing policy is excellent, far better than in countries such as Belarus, Jamaica, USA, Russia etc - other big sprint nations who are now way ahead of them. There's also been a change in the guard these last few years - Andrea Philip, Melanie Paschke, the Rockmeier twins all retired within a couple of years of each other, only leaving Marion Wagner from that era still active in the short sprints, while Feller and Rohlander alos retired, and Rucker is now 36. Esther Moller also appears to have retired after injuries, while Sina Schielke and Nadine Hentschke are pregnant/injured. Then there's the whole image of athletics, a lot of young women simply do not take the sport up anymore.

I suppose a consolation is that the German women made the 4x1 and 4x4 finals, beating Ukraine and Poland on times in the latter. They have a genuine talent in Verena Sailer, and with Schielke and Hentschke hopefully back to full fitness a 4x1 team of Schielke, Tschrich/Hentschke, Sailer and Wagner should, in theory, be threatening for medals like Russia, and not be 'also rans'.
They also have young talents like Janin Lindenberg & Sonia Nwachwkwu, both just 21, who have run 52.9 and 52.6 this season. With Marx back from injury, and looking at Hoffman's 50.1 from the heats in the 4x4, they could have a half decent 4x4 team, capable of making the final again, but definately not a medal threat.

[Powell]

Germany had an atrocious games, but it's peaks and troughs - I'm sure they'll come back again another year and win medals in the womens JT (again), the mens and womens SP, the mens PV...

Yes, they are probably going to be stronger in Berlin next year, but their talent pool has become much shallower in recent years. There is very little to get excited about in running events in general - and women's sprints in particular are shockingly weak these days. No one under 23.5 at 200 this year :shock: Did DLV decide they were not going to win medals on the track and start to invest in field events only?

[Brettboy]

Germany had an atrocious games, but it's peaks and troughs - I'm sure they'll come back again another year and win medals in the womens JT (again), the mens and womens SP, the mens PV...

I think events where Germany has a strong tradition, like the technical throwing events, have seen countries like Belarus overtake them.

[Brettboy]

Re: The downfall of Western European T&F

I had no idea about some of those guys!
Kenta Bell? :shock:
Crystal Cox?
MARY DECKER?????? :shock:
Dreschler?? :shock:
Greg Foster?? :shock: :shock:
Natasha Myers
MARY ONYALI???????? :shock: :cry:
Prokhorova?

Well, that document isnt totally accurate as Drechsler has never admitted to steroid use. There was a big palava a few years ago when she competed in Glasgow indoors (2001?) and the UK press misquoted her condemnation of the GDR system. However, what she actually said was the evidence shows that doping existed for some athletes in the GDR, which is true. But she's never admitted knowingly taking anything.

As for some of the others, Jaack, get with it!

[eldrick]

rich

did same apply to kenyans of '60s/'70s ?

[richxx87]

i'm not too sure about "western" training methods - likes of keino/abebe/jipcho/kipkurgat/boit/bayi/yifter/etc either won golds/broke wrs/almost broke wrs with whatever training they had in '60s/'70s - i doubt the african coaches were taking phd's in lydiard/daniels back then

The guy who opened the floodgates was, of course, Abebe Bikila. That breakthrough may have occurred regardless, but Bikila was, in fact, trained with "Western training methods" by his Finland-born Swede coach Onni Niskanen. He would very likely have been familiar with the methods of both the Flying Finns and his own Swedish coaches (he was a national-class distance runner for them in the '30s).

[kamikaze7]

I don't necessarily agree with this statement.
Africa was even more primitive and isolated at that time, and without Western training methods, I don't think their athletes could have beaten Europe's best.

Oh those poor Africans. Can they do anything without western help ?
Geez Louize !
Firstly training for distance events is not rocket science despite how much people here try to make it.
And think of John Ngugi who had only 2 or 3 years of schooling, could barely read, trained on his own, did not interact much with other runners and wound up winning 4 world cross country titles and an Olympic gold

[noone]

I think the decline in Western Europe is a trend that should concern us all. How long will Finns, Germans, Belgians, French, etc. support their great track meets when their own countrymen are no longer competitive? This is what happened in North America 40 years ago and it is about to happen in Western Europe. Also, importing "instant" citizens from Africa or Eastern Europe will have no more effect than it has in Qatar and Bahrain -- i.e. the public doesn't see them as "our" athletes.

[Dutra]

Eldy,
I seem to recall some pretty big names in distance running coming from Countries such as Norway, Belgium, Finland and Portugal.

well rasb,

norway - rodahl from 12y ago & he woudn't have won if kip was there

finland - it's 24y ago since likes of vainio, maininka

portugal - ribero 12y ago & was lucky to beat an inexplicably poor wang & as soon as the thopys came thru in numbers, she got crushed

belgium - are we going all the way back to puttemans 32y ago ?

these countries eras were so long ago it's hardly woth remembering

In terms of medalists yes but these countries had guys who were competitive.

[Powell]

Re: The downfall of Western European T&F

I think Decker's ban was overturned?

It wasn't. USATF reinstated her, but IAAF confirmed the ban. She lost her silver from the 1997 WIC.

[eldrick]

your missing the point

the african talent we see today didn't simply evolve in last 30y - it's been there for few thousand years - they are now getting opportunity to show it

if they had had the current day opportunities 30y ago, then i doubt a fraction of the western names there wouda set wrs or won golds

it took 'till late '80s/early '90s for 13'00/27'00 barriers to be breached when we started getting some africans in bunches turning up on the circuit

my gut feeling is that we'd have got there in the '70s if we'd had sufficient africans around just using '70s training methods ( rono, an over-raced & not properly race-paced guy comes to mind as a template )

i'm not too sure about "western" training methods - likes of keino/abebe/jipcho/kipkurgat/boit/bayi/yifter/etc either won golds/broke wrs/almost broke wrs with whatever training they had in '60s/'70s - i doubt the african coaches were taking phd's in lydiard/daniels back then

[Jacksf]

different era with no floods of africans to deal with

imo, few of those woud have been elite champs if curent calibre of africans were competing back then

I don't necessarily agree with this statement.
Africa was even more primitive and isolated at that time, and without Western training methods, I don't think their athletes could have beaten Europe's best.

[nevetsllim]

Re: The downfall of Western European T&F

Greece, Bulgaria and Russia are the biggest offenders...

Ridiculous. As they say in Ireland, póg mo thóin ......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_do ... s_in_sport

http://www.usatf.org/about/legal/antidoping/DQs.asp

:lol:

I had no idea about some of those guys!
Kenta Bell? :shock:
Crystal Cox?
MARY DECKER?????? :shock:
Dreschler?? :shock:
Greg Foster?? :shock: :shock:
Natasha Myers
MARY ONYALI???????? :shock: :cry:
Prokhorova?

But people like Onyali and Bell only served three month or six month bans in their career. I think Decker's ban was overturned?

I'm not exactly surprised but I didn't know Devyatovskiy was banned.